Trying to re-seat injectors

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:45 pm

I unplugged the green cable ( both of them in fact ) on the pass side in my car to drain the gas pressure. I started the car and it would not die, even after like 30 seconds. What's the deal?

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:36 am

Nevermind, got past that step. Got the injectors seated much better, everything plugged back up and bolted back on. I went about 10 miles, no problems. Stopped to get gas, when I turned car back on, the loving CEL greeted me. ( P1491, blow by sensor ) I reset it, drove back to friends house another 5 miles and it did not come back on. Get back in car 30 minutes later to do some wideband logging and KAPOW, there she is again. Ideas, suggestions, help!@$!$@

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:37 am

I think I found a loose connector, seems to have fixed the cel.

Now we have this log with the wideband O2 sensor hooked up:

http://bsd-unix.net/seitz/enginuity/log ... deband.log

Which can be viewed after installing:

http://bsd-unix.net/seitz/enginuity/LogWorks2-setup.zip

Gas mileage still seems HORRIBLE. Throttle response from idle when doing anything but gently easing on it hesitates. Idle seems... ok, seems mostly steady at 1000 RPM (set in ROM). Leak down test was fine (PTuning). I am out of ideas here unless the log shows my map needs to be tweaked. Please help before Gabe buys my car

Post by **complacent** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:41 am

What is the hesitation like? Is it more of a stumbling (fuel & ignition issues) or a bucking (open loop/closed loop boost control issue)?

I've personally only ever had issues with partial throttle boosting issues. That can be brought on my using an MBC... depending on the tune.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:02 pm

No bucking going on, just a bit of a stumble. I'm totally at a loss here, I'd really like to get some gas mileage back and get the gas outa my oil pan. I can't really tell from the log I posted above whether or not it's the tune but I'd be more than willing to pay $500 bux to have it dyno tuned if you guys think that'd solve my problems

midnit · Post by **midnit** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:39 pm

Bryan, what is your gas mileage like man? Mine's horrible too and I'm pretty much stock... I think it's just the car bro, this isn't like my civic at all, which I've gotten used to so far because the power is oh so worth it.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:40 pm

<= 12 mpg, driving normally not a lot of boost.

midnit · Post by **midnit** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:42 pm

I only get like 17-20 depending on how much I stay in boost. Less than 12 sounds god awful.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:43 pm

Stage2 I got about 17-20 too. It is stumbling pretty bad now, if I am going like 40 and I let rpms drop to 1500 and hit the gas it's like sput sput sput vroom. What is wrong w/ my POS ?

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:59 pm

BUMP b/c I'm talking to myself

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:34 pm

Just checked oil and sure enough there is gas in it again. Just got oil changed on Wednesday too.

The only things I can think of:

Fuel pump
Tune
Injectors

I need to get this fixed ASAP as gas is not a lubricant.... I have no clue where to take the car that will have someone who can fix it. Already took it to PTuning who could not.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:02 pm

Just for completeness, also posted on NASIOC:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... p=20160036

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:16 pm

I saw the post over on NASIOC.

WolfPlayer's suggestions of...
1) Leaky injector.
2) Dirty MAF.
3) Bad OEM O2 sensor (probably not the issue given that your wideband agrees with ~14.7:1)
4) FPR unplugged, etc.

Are pretty good, however, I don't think your O2 sensor is bad, it is far too consistant, and you would have O2 related CELs flying all the time. The MAF is easy to clean, just pull it from the intake and unplug it and clean it with some rubbing alcohol and a cotton swab. Unfortunately, I don't think that is the issue either. The unplugged Fuel Pressure Regulator is easily checked, but again, I just don't think that's likely since it's not so easy to "unplug" and no one has likely ever touched it.

The car was running fine prior to the injector, fuel pump and turbo install, so what do we know?
1. We know the injectors are getting fuel (not getting fuel isn't the problem) so it's not the fuel pump.
2. The turbo has nothing to do with fuel, so it's not the turbo.
3. Reseating the injectors didn't fix the issue so, it's not a seating issue. (at least not likely)

That leaves us with the injectors themselves.

Which means it is either a faulty injector (which seems unlikely but could still be possible).

Or they are not scaled properly, or the latencies are incorrect, or your just running very, very rich.

Have you been able to get any decent readings from the wideband at low throttle input w/ no boost at 2,000-4,000 RPMs? You should run pretty lean at those points (like 13.5 to 1).

Beyond that it requires either testing your injectors to see if they leak, and/or find another qualified tuner to check the scaling, latencies and AFRs.

Beyond that I'm stumped.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:20 pm

Yeah my conclusions are pretty much the same Darrin. I think I'll swap my stockers back in and try to scale those myself and see what happens. Then send off the PE850s to get cleaned/flow tested. Anyone good w/ scaling injectors and tuning for an intake w/ enginuity?

Guess it's time to learn so I can help others out in the future.

Also if I am going to mod my stock injectors, what's better perrin or Deatschwerks?

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:36 pm

Unfortunately, you can't just plug your old injectors back in. The 20G will quickly overdrive your poor stock injectors, unless you drop your boost down to 14psi or so while yours are out being tested. You could also just sell the PEs and either. . .

A. Buy a set off Julian (if he wants to sell them) and send them to Perrin and have them modified for $199.
http://www.perrinperformance.com/produc ... category=7

or

B. Get a set of Deatschwerks 850cc for $559 (minus $100 if you send them your set)
http://www.deatschwerks.com/catalog/pro ... cts_id=130

Both would use factory

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:56 pm

drwrx wrote:Unfortunately, you can't just plug your old injectors back in. The 20G will quickly overdrive your poor stock injectors, unless you drop your boost down to 14psi or so while yours are out being tested. You could also just sell the PEs and either. . .

A. Buy a set off Julian (if he wants to sell them) and send them to Perrin and have them modified for $199.
http://www.perrinperformance.com/produc ... category=7

or

B. Get a set of Deatschwerks 850cc for $559 (minus $100 if you send them your set)
http://www.deatschwerks.com/catalog/pro ... cts_id=130

Both would use factory

Right, I would have to re-tune my current map with the capacity and latency from the previous map and stick to low boost. Everyone is saying that the Deatsch are better than perrin, and I guess rightfully so at 2x+ the price. I'm open to selling the PEs but with the 'modified' red plastic rails and unknown functionality I'd probably sell em for a huge loss

Also if I do go the modified stock route, I'd probably stick to Deatshwerks. Should I get 740 or 850cc modified stockers?

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:02 pm

Phibs wrote:I'm open to selling the PEs but with the 'modified' red plastic rails and unknown functionality I'd probably sell em for a huge loss

Sadly, that's probably true. But that is likely your only option if your not going to pull them and have them tested.

I think a call or e-mail to Jeff might be in order as well.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:08 pm

drwrx wrote:
Phibs wrote:I'm open to selling the PEs but with the 'modified' red plastic rails and unknown functionality I'd probably sell em for a huge loss
Sadly, that's probably true. But that is likely your only option if your not going to pull them and have them tested.

I think a call or e-mail to Jeff might be in order as well.

Nod. Did that w/ no response, he's a busy guy I guess. Would 740cc be enough capacity to run < 80% IDC in my setup? It seems by my calculations it would be.

Post by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:28 pm

drwrx wrote:Unfortunately, you can't just plug your old injectors back in. The 20G will quickly overdrive your poor stock injectors, unless you drop your boost down to 14psi or so while yours are out being tested. You could also just sell the PEs and either. . .

A. Buy a set off Julian (if he wants to sell them) and send them to Perrin and have them modified for $199.
http://www.perrinperformance.com/produc ... category=7

or

B. Get a set of Deatschwerks 850cc for $559 (minus $100 if you send them your set)
http://www.deatschwerks.com/catalog/pro ... cts_id=130

Both would use factory

Your fuel pressure regulator I'm sure is fine, otherwise you would be going lean under high boost.

Your stock injectors, as Darrin said, will not be able to keep up with the air that the turbo is pushing. While dropping you boost will help, you can only drop to your wastegate pressure, which is turbo dependent - well, really wastegate spring dependent (I have a 17.5PSI spring in my SZ55).

I have a set of injectors that I can sell you for $200 (unmodded). Modding them would add $200 and your injector latencies would have to be rescaled since the PE's and stock injectors are different. Whatever you choose to do, make sure you get them flowtested and cleaned at http://www.witchhunter.com/ They are hands down the best shop for this.

Your IDC's are in the 70's range right now, so you have some room to scale them down if you want. I always go larger (well, there is too large, but that will not be the case with you) with injectors to make sure I have a nice amount of headroom for the IDC's.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:33 pm

Sabre wrote:I always go larger (well, there is too large, but that will not be the case with you) with injectors to make sure I have a nice amount of headroom for the IDC's.

I would side with Julian on this one, you might as well go bigger.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:02 pm

Sabre wrote:
drwrx wrote:Unfortunately, you can't just plug your old injectors back in. The 20G will quickly overdrive your poor stock injectors, unless you drop your boost down to 14psi or so while yours are out being tested. You could also just sell the PEs and either. . .

A. Buy a set off Julian (if he wants to sell them) and send them to Perrin and have them modified for $199.
http://www.perrinperformance.com/produc ... category=7

or

B. Get a set of Deatschwerks 850cc for $559 (minus $100 if you send them your set)
http://www.deatschwerks.com/catalog/pro ... cts_id=130

Both would use factory
Your fuel pressure regulator I'm sure is fine, otherwise you would be going lean under high boost.

Your stock injectors, as Darrin said, will not be able to keep up with the air that the turbo is pushing. While dropping you boost will help, you can only drop to your wastegate pressure, which is turbo dependent - well, really wastegate spring dependent (I have a 17.5PSI spring in my SZ55).

I have a set of injectors that I can sell you for $200 (unmodded). Modding them would add $200 and your injector latencies would have to be rescaled since the PE's and stock injectors are different. Whatever you choose to do, make sure you get them flowtested and cleaned at http://www.witchhunter.com/ They are hands down the best shop for this.

Your IDC's are in the 70's range right now, so you have some room to scale them down if you want. I always go larger (well, there is too large, but that will not be the case with you) with injectors to make sure I have a nice amount of headroom for the IDC's.

Ok sounds good. Guess I'll get the wife's car working while I send my stockers off to be modded.

BryanH · Post by **BryanH** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:59 pm

Just out of curiosity you aren't driving the car right now...are you? I really wouldn't until you get the injectors sorted out and an oil change done.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:13 pm

Driving for testing purposes, gonna start using the wife's car. Grumble VW Jetta.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:59 pm

So I need to get this car fixed ASAP, where the heck can I take it that has knowledgeable people and the time available ?

Post by **Sabre** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:26 pm

Wait for Andrewtech is my best advise.