Pardon the interruption...

[avriette]

Why must all complete engines cost > US$40k? A core is anywhere from $700 to $4000, headwork less than $5,000, manifolds and turbos maybe $7,000, and a typical stroke/forged kit costing maybe $6,000. I see $21,000. Yet, when you have a look at the offerings:

http://www.topsecretjpn.com/products/rb26complete.jpg (rb26)
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/ ... 7_56055769 (2JZ)
http://www.exvitermini.com/pics/2003eb3.jpg (rb26)

Seems I could put together any of these engines on my own, as they're all built from off-the-shelf parts and used cores. Yet they're all between $40k and $60k. Surely there isn't $20k in labor on it. That's about 275 hours of work at current ASE rates, or about seven weeks. Full time. I managed to tear down, recondition, and rebuild an L28 in a semester, when I was only in class two and a half hours a day. Three times a week. Unless there's damage, there's just not that much actual work in rebuilding an engine. I'm guessing I could put together a B-series motor in a day or two if I had the time to do it. I just can't see the reasoning behind the cost, other than the convenience of it.

I would bet it's even cheaper to get a shop to build a motor than it is to buy a pre-built motor. I find myself thinking how much time it would take and whether it'd come out okay if I built the sucker in my basement. The last motor I built (which is the motor to be replaced in this case) was beaten pretty hard but wasn't exactly at the level of the above motors.

Have any of you purchased a motor or substantial work on a motor? I'd be interested in hearing your story, Julian. Although I suppose the damage would have increased labor.

Of course, there are several builders selling EJ25's, also well in excess of $20k.

[WANGAN_X]

i can get a fully built 4g for way less like 6-10k

[Sabre]

Come on Thusday and I'll bring my receipt from AR Fab. It's not broken down exactly, but I can give you some clue as to how much the stuff costs. 40+k for a motor.... is just rediculous unless you are replacing everything with titanium....

[sirwilliam]

Come on Thusday and I'll bring my receipt from AR Fab. It's not broken down exactly, but I can give you some clue as to how much the stuff costs. 40+k for a motor.... is just rediculous unless you are replacing everything with titanium....

I heart me some titanium

[Mr Kleen]

Why must all complete engines cost > US$40k?

because there are people who will pay it?

[WANGAN_X]

screw TI... billet is where its at...

[sirwilliam]

screw TI... billet is where its at...

Okay, give me all your TI and you can keep your weak, shiney billet.

[WANGAN_X]

billet is what is used in Top Fuel engines... nothing weak about it...

[sirwilliam]

billet is what is used in Top Fuel engines... nothing weak about it...

Hmm, so that is why NASA uses TI on there space ships instead of billet.

Billet is used on Top Fuel engines b/c it isn't rare like TI, doesn't cost as much as TI (it is pretty freakin crazy how much they spend to go one run on the drag strip and they have to minimize costs as much as possible), and it has pretty decent strength (although TI is much stronger and possibly lighter).

[avriette]

billet is what is used in Top Fuel engines... nothing weak about it...

Um, billet is a process not a material. Well, not exactly, but turning billets (french for big chunks of stuff) into parts is a process. In this fashion, you could make billet pistons out of cheese. And thus, you could make pistons from billet titanium.

Billet being the operative difference between forged and cast. That having been said, titanium is brittle, but has high tensile strength, and low conductivity when compared to steel. I'd think it was okay for rods, but I wouldn't want it for pistons (or valves, really, but some people use them). Cams would also be a good place, flywheels, crankshafts...

[sirwilliam]

billet is what is used in Top Fuel engines... nothing weak about it...

Um, billet is a process not a material. Well, not exactly, but turning billets (french for big chunks of stuff) into parts is a process. In this fashion, you could make billet pistons out of cheese. And thus, you could make pistons from billet titanium.

Billet being the operative difference between forged and cast. That having been said, titanium is brittle, but has high tensile strength, and low conductivity when compared to steel. I'd think it was okay for rods, but I wouldn't want it for pistons (or valves, really, but some people use them). Cams would also be a good place, flywheels, crankshafts...

Uh, actually it is a material resulting from a process of converting from ingot:

BILLET (n) -Metalworking. a comparatively narrow, generally square, bar of steel, esp. one rolled or forged from an ingot; a narrow bloom.

Here's another:

BILLET (n) -A small, usually rectangular bar of iron or steel in an intermediate stage of manufacture.

Titanium is also as strong as steel but 45% lighter. It is 60% heavier than aluminum, but twice as strong.

I just figured you were using the default material (aluminum) to argue against titanium.

Here is a cool VID just show casing its strength vs. carbon and aluminum

But regardless, $40-60k is way too much to pay for an engine

[avriette]

Well, not exactly, but turning billets (french for big chunks of stuff) into parts is a process.

Uh, actually it is a material resulting from a process of converting from ingot:

BILLET (n) -Metalworking. a comparatively narrow, generally square, bar of steel, esp. one rolled or forged from an ingot; a narrow bloom.

Here's another:

BILLET (n) -A small, usually rectangular bar of iron or steel in an intermediate stage of manufacture.

I guess I should have been more clear when saying "big chunks of stuff." I should have said a "comparatively narrow, generally square, bar of stuff." Where "big" in this case means "bigger than the eventual product" -- machining from billet is a subtractive process. Or maybe you were referring to the difference between "steel" and "cheese" or "stuff" here? A billet is just a block of goo. You can turn it and make it into whatever you like with CAM, and it can be made from anything, from tungsten, polymers, diamond, ice, even cheese. Consider "billet" the before picture, and "wheel/piston/crank" the after picture. Even if you make your crank out of cheese (you should reduce your compression with a cheese crank, but it's a lot lighter).

Titanium is also as strong as steel but 45% lighter. It is 60% heavier than aluminum, but twice as strong.

"Strong" has relative properties. Tensile strength, torsional rigidity, and so on. Titanium is brittle. At least, when compared to most compositions of steel. Aluminum is also brittle, but I believe it is less brittle than titanium (I could be wrong on that one).

I just figured you were using the default material (aluminum) to argue against titanium.

Uh, aluminum crankshafts? Pistons? Conrods?

But regardless, $40-60k is way too much to pay for an engine

Yeah. Hence the question. I did some mental math and figured that I could probably buy all the parts and put them together in my garage for a whole lot less. And besides, if that blew up, it isn't like the shop I paid $50k for an engine would replace their blown up engine anyways.

Sigh.

[WANGAN_X]

lol... i learn something new everyday...

I know AMS will replace it if it is proved they were at fault and not you cranking the boost to fiftyeleven psi

[sirwilliam]

Well, not exactly, but turning billets (french for big chunks of stuff) into parts is a process.

Uh, actually it is a material resulting from a process of converting from ingot:

BILLET (n) -Metalworking. a comparatively narrow, generally square, bar of steel, esp. one rolled or forged from an ingot; a narrow bloom.

Here's another:

BILLET (n) -A small, usually rectangular bar of iron or steel in an intermediate stage of manufacture.

I guess I should have been more clear when saying "big chunks of stuff." I should have said a "comparatively narrow, generally square, bar of stuff." Where "big" in this case means "bigger than the eventual product" -- machining from billet is a subtractive process. Or maybe you were referring to the difference between "steel" and "cheese" or "stuff" here? A billet is just a block of goo. You can turn it and make it into whatever you like with CAM, and it can be made from anything, from tungsten, polymers, diamond, ice, even cheese. Consider "billet" the before picture, and "wheel/piston/crank" the after picture. Even if you make your crank out of cheese (you should reduce your compression with a cheese crank, but it's a lot lighter).

Again, billet is a material and originally you arguing it as a process that is all. And the big raw chunks that through a process turns into billet is called ingot (not billet). I am glad you are so fond of cheese, but it really is fattening.

Titanium is also as strong as steel but 45% lighter. It is 60% heavier than aluminum, but twice as strong.

"Strong" has relative properties. Tensile strength, torsional rigidity, and so on. Titanium is brittle. At least, when compared to most compositions of steel. Aluminum is also brittle, but I believe it is less brittle than titanium (I could be wrong on that one).

Actually, Aluminum is more brittle than Titanium.

It might just be easier to have an assembled block if you don't think you will be at a level you want if you build it yourself.

[Sabre]

ok you two...

Several definitions for you:

Billet:
1. A comparatively narrow, generally square, bar of steel, esp. one rolled or forged from an ingot; a narrow bloom.
2. A small, usually rectangular bar of iron or steel in an intermediate stage of manufacture.
3. A small ingot of nonferrous metal.

Ingot:
1. A mass of metal, such as a bar or block, that is cast in a standard shape for convenient storage or shipment.
2. A casting mold for metal.

To me, the above says that Billet is a piece of metal, usually bar shaped, that is going through a specific process to get to a final result. Sounds like it could be iron or steel. This process starts as a Ingot of metal. reinforcing this view is this Wikipedia article (search for Billet).

Now on to the brittle debate....
Check out this entry in Wikipedia for your answer. Here is the table for those that are lazy:
Aluminum alloy 36 KIc
Steel alloy 50 KIc
Titanium alloy 44-66 KIc
Aluminum 14-28 KIc

If you want to pay $20, you can download a scientific paper on it.

Thanks and have a great day!

[sirwilliam]

ok you two...

Several definitions for you:

Billet:
1. A comparatively narrow, generally square, bar of steel, esp. one rolled or forged from an ingot; a narrow bloom.
2. A small, usually rectangular bar of iron or steel in an intermediate stage of manufacture.
3. A small ingot of nonferrous metal.

Ingot:
1. A mass of metal, such as a bar or block, that is cast in a standard shape for convenient storage or shipment.
2. A casting mold for metal.

To me, the above says that Billet is a piece of metal, usually bar shaped, that is going through a specific process to get to a final result. Sounds like it could be iron or steel. This process starts as a Ingot of metal. reinforcing this view is this Wikipedia article (search for Billet).

Now on to the brittle debate....
Check out this entry in Wikipedia for your answer. Here is the table for those that are lazy:
Aluminum alloy 36 KIc
Steel alloy 50 KIc
Titanium alloy 44-66 KIc
Aluminum 14-28 KIc

If you want to pay $20, you can download a scientific paper on it.

Thanks and have a great day!

Thanks Julian.