Diesel: pro's & con's

[chicken n waffles]

as soon the day arrives that i'm paying $4 at the pump for 93 octane only to get @18mpg, i'm out of the sti and into something that won't put my wallet in a hurt locker.

[scheherazade]

The extra cost of diesel should offset any mileage gains ($ wise)...
Plus it comes from the same ever-growing-in-price crude.

As far as the green factor, I'd rather burn gas and emit less-carcinogenic exhaust, even if it is a little more exhaust in total.

Plus with biodiesel being a net energy loser once you add in the machinery used to grow and process the stuff, and the energy spent on fertilizers, etc, it just doesn't seem like a worth while process to me.

I'd rather the $ go into a more final solution, like solar/wind/tidal and hydrogen production.
Otherwise, we just make *another* energy giant that will lobby itself into immortality, and will stick around long after we would ideally *like* it to go away.

I would like the torque though...

-scheherazade

[Mr Kleen]

biodiesel isn't the solution (chemistry pun?) but if you already have used cooking oil that's going to waste why not use it as fuel?

unless we can find a way to get hydrogen to "live the single life" (and find a way to get past it's energy density problem) it isn't going to be much of a solution either.

solar would be nice, just gotta find a way to make solar panels cheaper and that use more wavelengths of light.

short term I think turbo diesel/electric hybrid with urea exhaust injection will help stretch the oil supply and give us more time to develop Mr Fusion.

[scheherazade]

I would like to see solar/nuclear plants hydrolyzing water.

I don't fear compressed hydrogen tank in my trunk any more than a propane tank in my trunk.

(seems to me that hydrogen has a fear culture around it... possibly all due to one single airship disaster...)

Either way, just let crude costs rise, and the next energy giant will bubble up.

-scheherazade

[TAPOUT]

as soon the day arrives that i'm paying $4 at the pump for 93 octane only to get @18mpg, i'm out of the sti and into something that won't put my wallet in a hurt locker.

That may be in 2-3 months...

[Mr Kleen]

nuclear waste FTL.

I don't fear compressed hydrogen it's just that compressing it takes a lot of energy and we still aren't able to compress it enough to carry much around.

[WRXWagon2112]

as soon the day arrives that i'm paying $4 at the pump for 93 octane only to get @18mpg, i'm out of the sti and into something that won't put my wallet in a hurt locker.

That may be in 2-3 months...

I filled up yesterday (in VA) with 93 octane for $3.22-9. Considering that prices will be higher during the summer driving season. $4/gallon premium gas is not just possible, it's likely.

--Alan

[scheherazade]

nuclear waste FTL.

I don't fear compressed hydrogen it's just that compressing it takes a lot of energy and we still aren't able to compress it enough to carry much around.

It sucks, but here's just not much of it.

For tens of years nuclear plants have had nowhere to take their waste, and have stored it on site.
In all that time, they're accumulated something like half-a-tanker-truck worth of waste (each plant).
There's just so little of it that I don't think it's a logistical problem to store and maintain it.

The only problem is people QQing about having nuclear waste in their state.
Which in a sense is also good, cause I'm more worried about the effects on ground water if they throw it into a mountain, than if they keep storing it above ground.
Plus when it's stored on site and above ground, it's plainly visible, and people will see any leaks/problems, and it can be dealt with.

-scheherazade

[chicken n waffles]

The extra cost of diesel should offset any mileage gains ($ wise)...
Plus it comes from the same ever-growing-in-price crude.

it remains to be seen. it depends on the diesel engine in question, and what kind of substantial increase in mileage it gets vs. my gas whore sti. i won't go the hybrid route. i know better. until you can see an r.o.i. in under... what is it on average... 7 years?... no thanks.

as soon the day arrives that i'm paying $4 at the pump for 93 octane only to get @18mpg, i'm out of the sti and into something that won't put my wallet in a hurt locker.

That may be in 2-3 months...

yep. guess i'll be selling.

[Bluestreak2006]

Quitter.....

[Sabre]

For tens of years nuclear plants have had nowhere to take their waste, and have stored it on site. In all that time, they're accumulated something like half-a-tanker-truck worth of waste (each plant). There's just so little of it that I don't think it's a logistical problem to store and maintain it.

The only problem is people QQing about having nuclear waste in their state.
Which in a sense is also good, cause I'm more worried about the effects on ground water if they throw it into a mountain, than if they keep storing it above ground.
Plus when it's stored on site and above ground, it's plainly visible, and people will see any leaks/problems, and it can be dealt with.

We have a ton of nuclear waste, some of it from power plants and some of it from weapons manufacturing. The sole purpose of a lab that I use to work for was figuring out how to get ride of it. Most of it cannot be put above ground because the radiation emanating from it. The cool thing that the lab did with the waste was to make it into glass. This prevented it from leaking from the drums and made it not as caustic to the container it was in.

[chicken n waffles]

Quitter.....

....with more $ to burn

[GaToR]

The extra cost of diesel should offset any mileage gains ($ wise)...
Plus it comes from the same ever-growing-in-price crude.

it remains to be seen. it depends on the diesel engine in question, and what kind of substantial increase in mileage it gets vs. my gas whore sti.

If you look at diesel vs. gas engines in some of the same perfomance-model cars, the diesels can get ~30% better fuel mileage. Plus with max torque hitting at 1500rpm or so, you can drive like you stole it and it won't guzzle.

As far as the green factor, I'd rather burn gas and emit less-carcinogenic exhaust, even if it is a little more exhaust in total.

Europe reacted quickly to the California-style emissions restrictions, and the clean diesels coming out now in BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and hopefully Subaru are as environmentally friendly (if not moreso) than our cars. In fact, in most identically sized applications, turbodiesels are closer in efficiency to hybrids than they are to straight gas engines. Oftentimes better.

So you can get similar HP, torque out the wazoo, and hybrid-like mileage. My only issue will be with the automatics. If Audi throws a 6-speed in one it's mine.

[scheherazade]

CO2 wise yes, but particulate wise, Europe has a 4x larger ceiling on what they permit.
Many of their (non-truck/non-industrial) diesels would not be permitted to be commercially sold here, even *not* in California.

Price wise, given regular vs diesel, diesel cost cuts that 30% savings into 10% savings. Yes savings, but not amazing.
rising crude = rising gas price = rising diesel price.
That margin will probably get worse for diesel, since diesel has shown itself to be more crude-price sensitive than gas.
For the general market, it would be difficult for rising gas price to drive the diesel market, if diesel rises faster and erases the money savings.

In the premium vs diesel category, then sure, diesel today is not any costlier... and the torque is nice.

-scheherazade

[GaToR]

CO2 wise yes, but particulate wise, Europe has a 4x larger ceiling on what they permit.
Many of their (non-truck/non-industrial) diesels would not be permitted to be commercially sold here, even *not* in California.

-scheherazade

The new ones have increased particulate filters. Blueteck by Mercedes, BMW Advanced Diesel and Audi TDI will all be allowed back on our roads this fall because of the steps they have taken.

BMW

Audi

Merc


They claim to have fewer emissions of all types than gas engines in the same model car. If Subaru wants to compete in this market, they will have to meet equivalent standards.

[zaxrex]

As biodiesel has been a topic of interest for me recently, here are some things of note that I picked up on recently.
1. Biodiesel is not classified as a fuel. The storage, transportation, and distribution regulations do not apply. It is not carcinogenic, is just slightly off of neutral PH, the flashpoint is 170 degrees higher than Diesel, and is biodegradable.

2. Biodiesel has a higher oxygen content than #3 diesel. This means higher combustion temperatures, and as a result, an increase in NOx production in unmodified vehicles. This is the only emission that increases when substituting biodiesel for petro-diesel. Ignition timing may be lowered 1-3 degrees to reduce EGTs and bring the NOx emissions back to equal that of petro diesel. Also, most diesel engines have not used catalytic converters. Significant reductions in all remaining emissions can be further reduced.

3. Sulfur dioxide is ELIMINATED. Other emissions are greatly reduced

4. There is approximately %12 less energy by density for biodiesel. BD is much more dense than petro diesel. The energy difference by volume is 8%. It is interesting to note that depending on the blend of petro diesel, energy content can vary up to 15% depending on processing.

this is my favorite

4. Compared to ultra low sulfur diesel fuel, biodiesel has much higher in-cyl lubricating properties. Makes your engine happy!

If you want to read more on the properties of BD (only slightly biased);
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/np ... /40555.pdf

[GaToR]

Price wise, given regular vs diesel, diesel cost cuts that 30% savings into 10% savings. Yes savings, but not amazing.
rising crude = rising gas price = rising diesel price.
That margin will probably get worse for diesel, since diesel has shown itself to be more crude-price sensitive than gas.
For the general market, it would be difficult for rising gas price to drive the diesel market, if diesel rises faster and erases the money savings.

In the premium vs diesel category, then sure, diesel today is not any costlier... and the torque is nice.

-scheherazade

Thats a lot of speculation on what gas/diesel prices are going to look like in the future. Gas/Diesel prices are both set by distributors to maximize profit.

As a national average diesel runs about the same price as premium, so as far as premium goes, you'd maintain that 30% savings (for now). And still greater than 20% versus regular.

The cost of diesel is actually less linked to the price of crude than petrol is according to the US Energy Information Administration. It is more linked to refining; the current high price could be fallout of natural disasters. I wouldn't be shocked if diesel dropped back below regular gasoline prices, since it is used almost exclusively by the transportation, construction, military, and industrial sectors over petrol. Basically, we need it. And we have a huge infrastructure for it. Gasoline is a consumer-only commodity.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

[Sabre]

4. Compared to ultra low sulfur diesel fuel, biodiesel has much higher in-cyl lubricating properties. Makes your engine happy!

Go figure, it's Fscking grease man!!!! Sorry, someone had to say it. For this reason and all the above, bio diesel is awesome shat.

[complacent]

... bio diesel is awesome shat.

quite literally.

[scheherazade]

Thats a lot of speculation on what gas/diesel prices are going to look like in the future. Gas/Diesel prices are both set by distributors to maximize profit.

As a national average diesel runs about the same price as premium, so as far as premium goes, you'd maintain that 30% savings (for now). And still greater than 20% versus regular.

30% more mileage.
price-paid = P / 1.3 = 0.76P
Now, say the price is 3 vs 3.5 dollars.
0.76 * (3.5 / 3) = 0.89P
Which is 0.11 less than the price of gas, roughly 10% price savings, today, versus regular.

The price of diesel has in the last 2 years gone up more than the price of gas (at least around here it has).

I'm a pessimist at heart, hence I expect diesel to keep climbing faster than gas, and eventually not be economically attractive.

I could be totally wrong... but I won't be holding my breath for the diesel revolution.

Although, that whole katrina business and the off-shore refineries... I can see from that web site how that would hurt diesel.

-scheherazade

[zaxrex]

The price of diesel has in the last 2 years gone up more than the price of gas (at least around here it has).
-scheherazade

You sure about that? Cutting it awfully close to call, isn't it?
I would say that since gasoline is tied closer to the variability in crude oil prices, that diesel price volatility is lower. And a good point was made that the military/industry runs on unrefined petro distillates. Gasoline is a consumer commodity. Diesel will be taken care of before gasoline pricing.

[GaToR]

Thats a lot of speculation on what gas/diesel prices are going to look like in the future. Gas/Diesel prices are both set by distributors to maximize profit.

As a national average diesel runs about the same price as premium, so as far as premium goes, you'd maintain that 30% savings (for now). And still greater than 20% versus regular.

30% more mileage.
price-paid = P / 1.3 = 0.76P
Now, say the price is 3 vs 3.5 dollars.
0.76 * (3.5 / 3) = 0.89P
Which is 0.11 less than the price of gas, roughly 10% price savings, today, versus regular.

The price of diesel has in the last 2 years gone up more than the price of gas (at least around here it has).

I'm a pessimist at heart, hence I expect diesel to keep climbing faster than gas, and eventually not be economically attractive.

I could be totally wrong... but I won't be holding my breath for the diesel revolution.

Although, that whole katrina business and the off-shore refineries... I can see from that web site how that would hurt diesel.

-scheherazade

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

[scheherazade]

The price of diesel has in the last 2 years gone up more than the price of gas (at least around here it has).
-scheherazade

You sure about that? Cutting it awfully close to call, isn't it?
I would say that since gasoline is tied closer to the variability in crude oil prices, that diesel price volatility is lower. And a good point was made that the military/industry runs on unrefined petro distillates. Gasoline is a consumer commodity. Diesel will be taken care of before gasoline pricing.

If back in high school diesel was cheaper than regular, and today it's on par with premium, that says to me diesel's gone up faster than gas.

I haven't seen diesel prices around here that match the prices in that chart. (The rest of the east coast must be a different story than NV, or that part of NV I live in).
I'll admit to only loosely watching diesel at the gas station... but according to that chart, the gas stations between where I live and where I work must be gouging diesel customers. (or they were giving great deals a few years back).

-scheherazade

[GaToR]

The price of diesel has in the last 2 years gone up more than the price of gas (at least around here it has).
-scheherazade

You sure about that? Cutting it awfully close to call, isn't it?
I would say that since gasoline is tied closer to the variability in crude oil prices, that diesel price volatility is lower. And a good point was made that the military/industry runs on unrefined petro distillates. Gasoline is a consumer commodity. Diesel will be taken care of before gasoline pricing.

If back in high school diesel was cheaper than regular, and today it's on par with premium, that says to me diesel's gone up faster than gas.

Also, those linked numbers surprise me, because they're not reflected at the gas stations around here.
N.V. area must be a bubble of some sort...
Seriously, I have not experienced anything in this area that would match the prices in that chart (not being dramatic, I really mean it).
Maybe Maryland/PA/north Carolina/(rest of VA) have a different story and it changes the central east average a lot... I can't say. I just know how it's gone down in NV.

-scheherazade

We get it. You don't like diesel. The horse is dead.

[scheherazade]

We get it. You don't like diesel. The horse is dead.

Acually, I like it more than gas. (I too would like the acceleration of 'my car at 5k rpm', at 2k rpm. If anything just to save clutch wear.).

*I'm not making an argument over what I would personally prefer.*
My only point is that higher fuel cost cuts into the savings margin that you get from the better mileage.

Technology can change that margin.
We'll see what hybrids do, and we'll see what higher efficiency diesels do.

There are some VW diesels coming out that claim 75 mpg.
If a hybrid is gonna get 50 mph, then it's hard to mess with a 50% margin.
After cost adjustment, you're looking at roughly 25% less $ expenditure.

I'm getting led in a direction I'm not totally interested in going. I have nothing against diesels, and I don't want to 'diss' them.
I'm just of the opinion that, factors outside the diesel itself, will have a big part in getting diesels accepted.

My *personal* expectation is that both gas and diesel will rise in cost so much that neither will be attractive, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the next 15 years or so.

Anyways, as the quote indicates, the 'mood' is shifting in a direction I'm not interested in going, so I'll stop sullying this engine thread with geopolitical/resource expectations.

-scheherazade