WTB new car. Looking for experienced opinions.

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:34 pm

First, Hello everyone.

I am dropping by here because a DCAWD member I know IRL told me you guys would know most things I should need to know going into a purchase.

I am looking to get a fast awd car.

I'm having trouble deciding what to do.
Availability of new evo 9's is super low, and I feel pressed to decide sooner rather than later (At least decide if I want a 9 or not. The others can wait.).
My time frame was actually "Once the new evo and new sti are out".

My current consideration lineup is :

Legacy GT
STI (08 hatchback)
EVO 9
EVO X
335 XI

My main points of interest are : (In no order.)

1) Long Term Reliability

2) Common problems in older models (notorious oil burners, etc)

3) Pitfalls (do-not-do's or else...)

4) If I were going to go used, what to look for in a used model?
4.1) Signs of a car to stay away from...

5) Is buying used with a fast car, pretty much stepping into doo-doo (i.e. it's been flogged to death and the guy is offloading it while it still runs).

6) Ease of upgrade-ability. (I'm looking for easy returns without too much investment. Not going to go crazy. A few K is my upgrade budget.)

My performance goals are pretty realistic.
Under 5 seconds to 60. (4-ish would be fantastic)
Under 160 feet from 70 - 0.

Price is a factor, the car itself should be at or under 40. (Base 335 xi coupe bought for around invoice is right at my maximum).
FYI I wouldn't be saddened if you all trash talk the 335 either... since it's the most expensive.
But if it's 'the shit', then that's great too.

-scheherazade

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:12 pm

335ix isn't really a competitor to the rest of the autos you listed. if you're into BMWs (and I don't blame you if you are) then you aren't the target marked for the pre-2008 STi. (I can't speak of the post-08 STi having never driven one.)

if you're looking for a good compromise between the luxury of the BMW and the raw speed of the STi/EVO I'd take a long look at the Legacy GT. it's considered the "poor man's S4 Quattro" by most auto reviewers.

Libra Monkee · Post by **Libra Monkee** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:14 pm

Okay first off I have to say, I like the name. Now my $0.02:

Before I got my car was trying to decide between the STi and the Evo IX. (This is what I know so this is what I'm commenting on). I read reviews, talked to owners, and test drove both cars. Ultimately I decided on the STi.

Here's why:

Reading the reviews both cars seemed pretty comparable. Similar HP and torque, acceleration, and driveability. But some reviewer pegged the Evo as being more of a track car. They would say that it drove fantastically and could easily beat it's rival (the STI) but driving on a daily basis, for some, could prove to be uncomfortable. I wouldn't know what they meant until my test drive.

Talking to owners of both vehicles wasn't much of a help. Most people are such fanatics about their cars they spend more time down-talking the other car then giving the pros and cons of their own. But they generally reiterated what I read in the reviews. The STi handles great and the DCCD helps out in certain situations. The Evo has great acceleration and a excellent gear ratio.

After testing both cars however my mind was made up. The dealer let me tear in to the cars through Wolf Trap park. Both cars impressed with thier speed and handling. The STi took the turns better but the Evo got up to speed faster. I was just about to decide on the Evo when I thought about daily driveability. Looking at interior, climate controls, radio, etc. the STi impressed a bit more the Evo's seemed more plastic and Matchboxy. But then I found out from the dealer the the Evo didn't have cruise control. That, for me, was a deal breaker.

The Evo was lotsa fun to drive but I spend a lot of time in my car and am constantly going back and forth between here and Philly. If I don't have a comfortable interior and cruise control, that could make my trips agonizing.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:20 pm

I agree with the above post, so here's my $0.02:

The 2008 STI would be an excellent choice, and if my wife would let me I'd be trading in my 2005 STI for one. If you want a nicer ride the Legacy GT is also quite a beast and has the same upgradability as the STI, minus the mad power mark due to the tranny.

Summary: Please buy me an 08 STI

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:32 pm

I'll deal with them as you have listed them:

Legacy GT:
+ Probably the most reliable car on your list
+ Cheapest, as you could pick-up a used 05-07 for $20-25k (You may have to hunt to find a manual, but you would also have no concerns of previous owner abuse)
+ 3k in mods can get you a 350whp sleeper that would run 0-60 in low 4 sec. and run the quarter in low 12s @120+mph.
+ Super stealthy
+ Low insurance
- You would likely need some upgrades to the tires/brakes to get your stopping distance to match STi or EVO.
- Some upgraded suspension bits would be needed to get the handling where the others are as well.
- Not as many people doing big power mods so the experince pool is not as deep.
- Unknown whether the LGT tranny can support 350whp with long term abuse.

STI (08 hatchback)
+ High reliability (STIs have been very reliable and with only only rear suspension changes there is no reason to believe the 08 would be otherwise)
+ Easy/cheap mods (350 whp for even less than LGT)
+ Can hit all your performance requirements out of the box
+ Huge network of tuners and owners with very deep knowlege/experience.
- New CANBUS ECU will take developers time to crack for tuning aps. (Ecutek has working software for LGT and FXT CANBUS ECU so STi should be coming soon)

EVO 9
+ Proven platform with decent quality (there are lots of little quality issues, but nothing of "break the bank" significance)
+ Easy/cheap mods (350 whp for even less than STi)
+ Also can hit all your performance requirements out of the box
+ ECU is currently cracked and easily tuned
+ Huge network of tuners and owners with very deep knowlege/experience
- Drivetrain problems beyond 350whp
- Used models more likely to have been abused (far more likely than with used STi)
- Stay away from used models driven by "kids" or had been previously modded and returned to stock

EVO X
+ Can hit all your performance requirements out of the box
- New engine/ECU/tranny set-up (big question marks here)
- Power remains the same, weight increases

335 XI
+ Nicest/Most Cache car on your list
+ Can hit 350 whp with piggyback ECU and Exhaust (for $2.5k)
+ Resale
- Massively expensive (base price of $40k)
- Reliability? (Sorry to say it. Build quality is high, but overall reliabilty is below average and repair costs are very high)

You could get an 08 WRX and get near STi level performance out of it with some power and suspension mods.

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:17 pm

The Legacy GT,

The 350whp sleeper you mention, what sort of work would go into that?

Also, given the *same whp*, would the legacy have competitive driving results relative to an evo/sti (not saying equal, but ballpark not far off)?
I'm wondering if gear ratios (or things like that) make it tougher to get actual driving results.

Just how much worse is the LGT suspension than the evo/sti?
I test drove a work mate's sti, and it turns scary-tight. What sort of effort would go into the LGT to make it do something similar?

Evo 9

The 'nothing major quality issues', what nature are they? Are they minor drive train issues, or simple things like 'the climate control knob falls off'?

I checked the Vishnu site, and a new ECU is stated to hit 380 flywheel hp, + an exhaust down-pipe hits 400fwhp/300whp.
The investment for the upgrade is so small...
The ECU alone is $750 ish, which gives (imho) amazing results for that much cash.

Evo X

I read from an evo X and evo 9 comparison that the X is a pretty sluggish accelerator (relatively speaking). Not many comparisons around, though. Biased results maybe.
They were saying about 5.4 seconds to 60 for the X.
They also said the 9 was right around (iirc) 4.8 seconds.

The engine change makes me wonder if it will have the same potential as the 9.
With the 9 putting down big numbers with so little investment, it would be sad to wait for the X, and find out that it just won't tune very high.

The other scary notion is that the X might require a non-trivial amount of tuning to make it equal the 9's straight-line acceleration.

Also the X has more [engine] aluminum. That makes me wonder : is there a durability issue?

If you can give me an eye-ball sort of comparison, from experience :
(I think the extra weight for the X is about 300 lbs over the 9)

Given a car with 3000 lb weight, and a 3300 lb weight.
If the 3000 lb car has 300 whp, and goes to 60 in 4 seconds.
How much whp would the 3300 lb car need to also hit 60 in 4 seconds?

The whp difference I think would illustrate the difference in effort to tune the heavier car.

335 XI

This thing is just posh.
I can't help but consider it a middle ground with good potential to be a bit more of a performer.
But yah, it's such a money sink.
It scares me that *if conditions were fare* I would actually buy it.
Knowing myself, I think it runs the risk of being one of those cars where you get it and you look back and think "did I really need to do that?".
I guess what that amounts to is me saying that I need a reason to let that one go.

Also, thank you guys so much for the help/info.
Sorry if I'm asking too much at once.
I just don't know much more than a little bit of hearsay.

-scheherazade

derangedazn · Post by **derangedazn** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:34 pm

I dont know much about subarus, so I will not address it much in my post.

Sti are much nicer DD, cruise control. Interior room in the rear is a little tighter than the Evo. Sexy boxer rumble, until you change exhaust manifolds (from what I have been told)

Now are far as the evo: much cheaper to mod. I have the SSL package so it comes with sunroof and leather seats. Doesnt have a lot of the bells and whistles as compared to other choices. Reliability is just fine, if you take care of it (this can be said with all vehicles) Stock clutch is weaker compared to sti/etc, but it all depends on your driving habits, and mods on the car (ie hp/trq numbers).

When buying a used evo definately do a compression check, since some people will claim their car was "stock" or "lightly modded."

The IX i a great platform because of Mivec, but it doesnt mean the 8 cannot compete. Stock for stock or lightly modded versus lightly modded, the IX will out win. But once you upgrade turbos with a proper tune, the playing is leveled. All the fast evos (AMS, Buschur, etc) are done on 8 and not IX.

I know the evo 8 is not one of your options but you can pick up a fairly good used one for much cheaper. I recommend the 05 because they come with the 10.5 hotsides as compared to the 9.8 hotside.

Also what are you future plans for they car, Drag racing, Track, etc. WHP/WTRQ expectations. DD versus weekend car. Go for a test drive or come out to a meet, and I am sure someone wouldnt mind give you a test drive to help you make a better decision.

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:17 pm

I'm interested in 2 things :

a) Lots of fun to screw around with.

b) I plan on driving it until it dies. Goal being NOT to kill it, but make it last without major issues till maybe 250k.

I'm not planning on competing with other cars. I'm mostly looking for something that meets my personal goals in terms of performance.

I am the kind of driver that day in day out doesn't speed (not more than 5 or 10 over), but _every_ chance I get, I floor it straight to the speed limit.
I just plain enjoy accelerating.

Also, a few months back I got hosed in a pile-up. My car was smashed from front and back. The guy in front didn't notice that a car in front of him was completely stopped, and he pretty much instantly dead-stopped when he hit him. Needless to say, my brakes couldn't compete with that. The guy behind me couldn't compete either...

At least for liability reasons (and because my level of stopping paranoia has risen), I'd like a car that can stop real fast. It's one thing to hit the guy in front of you, and another to be pushed into him.

I've dodged a few deer too... so being able to turn tight is desirable.
Plus I already take turns a bit tight, so it would be more of what I like.

I'm not looking for super high end tuning ability. Just a car that will give me lots of fun without going upgrade crazy to get it there.

As I mentioned, around :
0-60 in <=5s
70-0 in <=160ft

-scheherazade

BryanH · Post by **BryanH** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:19 pm

My choice if I were to do this all over again would be an Outback XT or a forester sport XT.

Why the Outback? Why not??? I have always wanted to mod the snot out of one.

Out of your choices the insurance rates on both the Evo and the STI are simply stupid. Even being married, with kids, nearing 40, with a clean record it is ridiculous what I would pay over my 07 WRX wagon.

Of your choices it would be the Legacy in a landslide for me.

And I can tell you stay the hell away from the BMW unless you plan to keep it bone stock and don't mind a 1400 service appt. that you cannot perform. And Jesus have mercy on your soul when something breaks out of warranty as parts AND labor rates for BMWs are hideous.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:24 pm

The 350whp LGT would require:
tubo $1,400, injectors $450, fuel pump $100, headers & up-pipe $200-450, Turbo-back exhaust $700-1,000, Bigger TMIC $250-$750 and tune $350-450.

Driving wise, it compare very similarly to an 350whp STi or EVO at least in a straight line (perhaps a little faster actually, given it's slightly taller gearing in 1st-4th).

As far as handleing goes, it would likely require a set of Struts (Tokico HTS), Springs, and sway bars, and some sticky tires to get it to handle like an STi. But that would not be a great amount out of pocket. A set of sways, springs and tires may get you close enough unless your a serious track driver.

The 350whp STi would require all the same stuff as the LGT to get it to 350whp, It's just that some of the stuff can be had cheaper (you could likely fnd a turbo-back exhaust for less than $500 if your willing to hunt).

The EVO 9 can get close to 350whp w/o having to swap the turbo, but injectors, fuel pump, turbo-back exhaust, cams and cam gears as well as a tune would still be required.

The issue with the EVO X not being able to run 0-60 at the same pace as the EVO 9 has less to do with the extra weight as it does with the EVO X not allowing for full throttle dump clutch launches that the 9 does. So many EVOs have burnt their clutches doing so that Mitsubishi limited the amount of torque in 1st gear and 2nd gears in the EVO X in an attempt to limit warranty work.

I'm going to say this and I don't mean to offend you. Have you ever driven a 300whp car before? If not, you may want to take a spin in one before you get it in your head that you need a "real fast, 12 second 1/4 mile car." The truth is, a stage 2 STi or EVO (turbo-back exhaust and tune) can easily get 300whp, and run a high 12 sec. 1/4 mile at around 110mph, as can a stg 2 LGT or a WRX with a turbo swap. A 300whp 3300lb. car is a monster compared to 99% of cars on the road. You may find that is enough and stop right there.

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:26 pm

Speaking of insurance rates...
I saw some estimates on edmunds.
The STI wasn't that much. They listed something like half of what the EVO costs to insure.
LGT was only a little less than the STI to insure.

Was that accurate?

Edit :
These are the edmunds links :
STI :
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2006/subaru ... 3/cto.html
LGT :
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/subaru/ ... 3/cto.html

It's a difference, but nothing astronomical.

Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5

$1,872 $1,938 $2,005 $2,076 $2,106 (sti)
$1,567 $1,622 $1,679 $1,737 $1,763 (lgt)

About 400 bucks a year diff. Not like double or anything.

-scheherazade

drwrx <<

That's not as bad as I thought. Close to $5k. It'd still leave headroom relative to a stock STI price wise.

I've only driven a stock STI. It was "omg fast" the first few minutes.
I got used to it pretty quick. All in all I could take maybe a notch more before I find it useless to go faster (since I don't plan on racing).
The stock STI is *Definitely* enough to keep me satisfied.

In regards to the Legacy, I'd like to upgrade it to STI performance.
In regards to the STI/EVO, I'd likely use them stock.

Most my EVO concerns are based around reliability. This is because I just don't see many old mitsu's out on the roads.

The X/9 upgrade talk is just me trying to contrast the two cars in terms of potential. There's just something that feels wrong about waiting for a newer model that's slower than the older model. So I'm just playing with numbers to see what effort it would take to make the X as fast as the 9. Not really to make it 350whp as my goal.

-scheherazade

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:57 am

So, do any people here have old evo's and old sti's?
(Roughly 5 years or older)

How are they holding up?

Would you guys feel uncomfortable trusting Mitsubishi to get the new engine right on the first try?

-scheherazade

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:13 am

Mitsu people correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, the only significant difference with the new EVO engine is that the block is now aluminum. that shouldn't mean much out of the box, but it means a LOT for aftermarket tuning...

WRXWagon2112 · Post by **WRXWagon2112** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:14 am

I have a 5 year old WRX wagon (and drwrx has the same) and it's holding up very well. Though I understand you're more concerned with STi's and EVOs and not regular WRX's.

STi's were introduced for the 2004 model year so you won't find any that are more than about 3 years old right now. I think the EVO was introduced in the U.S. about that time, too, so again - nothing more than 3 years old.

--Alan

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:03 am

scheherazade wrote:I've only driven a stock STI. It was "omg fast" the first few minutes.I got used to it pretty quick. All in all I could take maybe a notch more before I find it useless to go faster (since I don't plan on racing).The stock STI is *Definitely* enough to keep me satisfied.

In regards to the Legacy, I'd like to upgrade it to STI performance.

A good example of what a low cost LGT can do look here:
http://forums.dcawd.com/viewtopic.php?t=3490

That is one of our member's LGT running:
header/up-pipe ($120)
Stromung downpipe ($249)
(Stock midpipe)
Borla cat-back ($650)
K&N Typhoon intake ($229)
Cobb AP Stage II (you could get a TDC Protune stage 2 MAP $100.00)

257whp / 287ft.lbs
(stock STIs put down around 240-250 whp /ftlbs on this dyno)

He recently got a custom protune ($250) and his performance went up quite a bit in the top end 20+ whp. and some extra torque as well.

scheherazade wrote:Most my EVO concerns are based around reliability. This is because I just don't see many old mitsu's out on the roads.

Mitsubishi makes good quality cars. I wouldn't have any reservations about buying one. However, Subaru does have better quality across the board. As a matter of fact, Consumer Reports have Subaru now above Toyota in overall quality. Mitsubishi is well down the list, below Ford.

scheherazade wrote:The X/9 upgrade talk is just me trying to contrast the two cars in terms of potential. There's just something that feels wrong about waiting for a newer model that's slower than the older model. So I'm just playing with numbers to see what effort it would take to make the X as fast as the 9. Not really to make it 350whp as my goal.

I think the X will likely have as much potential as the 9 (at least in stock turbo form). But it is all speculation at this point.

Post by **Sabre** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:31 am

scheherazade wrote:In regards to the STI/EVO, I'd likely use them stock.
-scheherazade

If I had a dollar for every time I heard that....

I'm probably one of the older STI owners you'll run into (picked mine up on Dec 9th, 2003). I've heavily modified my car, so I can't speak directly for reliability (I'm on my second engine), however, my car has held up very well (almost 95k on it). I'm still as happy with my car as the day that I picked it up.

Do you need 4 doors? If not, have you considered the 135?

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:47 am

Actually, I was looking at the 335 *coupe*. It's lighter than the 4 door.
Technically the 135 should be fine.
Except, it's so damn ugly...
Especially when the 335 looks so good (imo).

The 335 has posh-ness and looks going for it.
135 takes those two away.
At that point, there is no point.
Speed wise it seems like there are cheaper alternatives.

I also heard that the 135/335 don't have an LSD, and rely on electronic brakes to limit slip.
Apparently that's less than optimal (though I can't say if this statement is accurate).

What do you think of the 135?

Yah. I know what you mean about the modding.
I have the personality to go overboard.
Knowing myself, if I modded an LGT, it probably wouldn't be modded _just_ to STI spec. (If you are gonna go through the effort, just do it well.)

If I had an STI/EVO though, they're already fast.
I could keep my hands off of them for a while at least.

I want to be smart about parts selection with any changes.
If a 250whp LGT mod can be done with parts suitable for a 350whp mod, I'd use the 350 whp parts. So later if I decide to do more I don't have to "replace my replacements".

-scheherazade

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:57 am

scheherazade wrote: If a 250whp LGT mod can be done with parts suitable for a 350whp mod, I'd use the 350 whp parts. So later if I decide to do more I don't have to "replace my replacements"

To go from Stage 2 250whp to a 350whp an LGT would require:
-Turbo (TD06-20G or bigger)
-Big TMIC/FMIC
-Injectors
-Fuel Pump
-Tune

All the parts from the stage 2 LGT would stay.

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:42 pm

scheherazade wrote:What do you think of the 135?

BMW is making a 135i?

http://forums.dcawd.com/viewtopic.php?t=5566
http://forums.dcawd.com/viewtopic.php?t=5310
http://forums.dcawd.com/viewtopic.php?t=5019
http://forums.dcawd.com/viewtopic.php?t=4615

so far I'm a fan. but I haven't driven or even seen one in person. 200lbs and $6000 less than a 335i: that $6k is more than enough cash for the TBE, reflash, and mild suspension work (C&D said that the 135i understeers more than the 335i in the preview drive published in the new issue).

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:03 pm

I'm looking bit I can't find any references to a 135 *XI*.
Looks like only RWD...

-scheherazade

BryanH · Post by **BryanH** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:10 pm

135 is only rwd...and BMW's are the greatest cars EVAR to drive if they are under warranty.

I can afford to buy a 3 series...I can't afford the non warranty repairs.

SRSLY...this whole thing boils down to a question of what is your final goal? If it is to go like hell and don't worry about creature comforts then that rules out the LGT. Start with either the EVO or STI and go from there.

If you are an old fart like me and would rather NOT have your wife yell at you about how loud the god damn car is a stage 2 LGT is a VERY obvious choice. They are damn fast and still comfy. As an added plus the insurance is cheaper.

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:48 pm

BryanH wrote: I can afford to buy a 3 series...I can't afford the non warranty repairs.

SRSLY...this whole thing boils down to a question of what is your final goal? If it is to go like hell and don't worry about creature comforts then that rules out the LGT. Start with either the EVO or STI and go from there.

Speed and Durability are tied for 1st with me

Comfort is important, but if I had to choose one or the other, I'd take performance.

335 is *almost* as fast as an sti/evo under stock conditions, and has way more comfort. That's what is so attractive about it.
If the 335 xi coupe could go for 35k, I'd prolly just get it now.

How long does a 350 whp subaru/evo last before you need major work on it?
Assuming you don't race with it, just drive it hard on a periodic basis.

Also, with the EVO X being aluminum and open block/deck... would 350whp be a realistic possibility *without* killing the engine in short order?

Also, I presume the X's torque limit on 1st and 2nd gears is computer controlled? (i.e. a flash could remove it)

-scheherazade

BryanH · Post by **BryanH** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:06 pm

err...s 335xi sedan (lets do apples to apples here) is 37K+ at invoice according to edmunds if you get it stripped. So plan on it over 40k before taxes, tags, and dest. as they ALWAYS cram some stupid package on it.

And as for the STI power needs...a stage 2 STI is damn fast. I would stop there and avoid the hassle of modding it further....but that is just me.

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:31 pm

Weight wise the 335 coupe is a closer match to the EVO/STI, so I'm only interested in the coupe.
Coupe XI invoices for 39K with change.
And yah, I can't find it anywhere close to invoice.

Are you saying stage 2 STI is the sweet spot?

-scheherazade

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:34 pm

scheherazade wrote:Weight wise the 335 coupe is a closer match to the EVO/STI, so I'm only interested in the coupe.
Coupe XI invoices for 39K with change.
And yah, I can't find it anywhere close to invoice.

Are you saying stage 2 STI is the sweet spot?

-scheherazade

After going past stage2 myself, I'd definitely say a well tuned stage2 STI is the place to be.