WTB new car. Looking for experienced opinions.

Looking for something? Throw it in here!

Moderator: Moderators

GaToR
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 873
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:56 pm

Post by GaToR »

scheherazade wrote:With the subarus...

You have that SI-Drive thing.
Not exactly. I'm not certain who here has actually gotten a Suby since SI-drive came out. My LGT was built in the pre-SI-drive days, as were all the '07 and earlier STIs. You are unlikely to find a 'ton' of SI-Drive tuning experience for the next couple years.

Same goes for the EVO X. No use making assumptions on what you can do to it yet before the hardware/software becomes available. This is a pioneering year for both models as far as ECU tuning goes.
User avatar
Phibs
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: Sterling, VA
Contact:

Post by Phibs »

BryanH wrote:Dude...Paul Brothers getting sold was the best thing to ever happen to that place. Between the service writer and the parts bitch that place was on a quick skid straight to hell. At least now someone has the cash to make the place work properly.
Yeah I've experienced both of those as well, long waits for parts etc... Nice people but man, definitely better they got sold and are probably closing that location.
Bryan
2012 WRX 5-Door Limited
User avatar
WRXWagon2112
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 3314
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Livin' the dream

Post by WRXWagon2112 »

I want to say that the SI Drive is strictly throttle response and does not affect the ECU. The "I" setting allows for a gentle throttle response - thereby saving gas by preventing drivers from burning lots of fuel on launch.

--Alan
scheherazade
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 am
Location: nova

Post by scheherazade »

legasleeper wrote:Same goes for the EVO X. No use making assumptions on what you can do to it yet before the hardware/software becomes available. This is a pioneering year for both models as far as ECU tuning goes.
Would that pretty much mean that for some time, all the cars would be 'stuck' in stock condition?

WRXWagon2112 wrote:I want to say that the SI Drive is strictly throttle response and does not affect the ECU. The "I" setting allows for a gentle throttle response - thereby saving gas by preventing drivers from burning lots of fuel on launch.
That sounds more like the 08's will have essentially the same electronics, and should be modable.



WANGAN_X <<
I would keep my honda so I have something to drive if my faster car has down time. I would probably do most my maintenance. I also have a family friend with a repair shop, and I'd patronize him over going to the dealer anyways.





If you do do mods, do you need to tune the car before really driving it?
For example, if injectors are changed, does that mean that the engine will run *wrong* until you get the ECU adjusted. Hence requiring a tow to the tuning shop so they can make it drivable?





Do any ECU's have a smart sort of behavior?
For example, you know what throttle/rpm you need at any speed to maintain your current speed.

If your foot selects a throttle setting that amounts to 0 acceleration, the engine is ran in a conservative mode.

Only when you press harder than needed to maintain your current speed, does it adjust into performance mode.

Are things like this possible?
Or is it stuck in "rambo" mode all the time?

-scheherazade
User avatar
WANGAN_X
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 786
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Post by WANGAN_X »

something like injectors and fuel pump not so much but turbos and boost i would highly suggest a tune, TBH i would do all mods then tune it, this saves you money, as foir driving without a tune it CAN be done, usually the comp will be in limp mode, even if it isn't i don't suggest you give it to much throttle

AFAIK the ecu's do not learn
User avatar
drwrx
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 4382
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:00 pm

Post by drwrx »

scheherazade wrote:That sounds more like the 08's will have essentially the same electronics, and should be modable.
The US 08 WRX/Legacy CANBUS ECU will soon have ECU tuning support available. Ecutek already has software available for the LGT and Cobb is announcing it will have some for the WRX as soon as the end of December. Look for freeware (Enginuity, ECUedit, TunerPro, ECUFlash) to follow not too long after that. I have yet to read any detailed information about changes to the EVO's ECU.
scheherazade wrote:If you do do mods, do you need to tune the car before really driving it?
For example, if injectors are changed, does that mean that the engine will run *wrong* until you get the ECU adjusted. Hence requiring a tow to the tuning shop so they can make it drivable?
There are very few mods that can be done w/o remaping the ECU to take advantage of them. Anything that significantly changes either of the two vital elements in combustion (fuel and air) can do serious damage in a very short time. Some intakes, a cat-back exhaust and pulleys are about the only examples I can think of that would not require any changes to the ECU.

No offense, but it is very clear you need to do some serious research into what "modding" a car entails. A basic understanding of what is required for "tuning/reflashing an ECU" as well as knowing what parts are needed and why are absolutely necessary before entertaining thoughts of "What car can do what with what mods?" A number of your questions can't be answered without going into great detail, detail that I suspect would be way beyond your comprehension. Again, I don't want to come off like a jerk, but a lot of your comments/responses indicate a very rudimentary understanding of performance cars and what it requres to make them that way and improve upon them. I can see this thread going on for months without you getting any closer to a decision, and a lot of the same ground being covered multiple times.
scheherazade
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 am
Location: nova

Post by scheherazade »

drwrx wrote:For example, if injectors are changed, does that mean that the engine will run *wrong* until you get the ECU adjusted. Hence requiring a tow to the tuning shop so they can make it drivable?
I guess I was really thinking more along the lines of : If I make the hardware changes in my garage, will the car drive to wherever I need to take it to get it tuned, or would I have to get it towed there.

edit : I do feel comfortable replacing part A with part B myself.




Yah, I'm a nub at this stuff.
I've repaired my own car before, but it's really only been replacing busted parts with working parts.

Can you point me at a good online source of info about the details?

-scheherazade
GaToR
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 873
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:56 pm

Post by GaToR »

scheherazade wrote: I guess I was really thinking more along the lines of : If I make the hardware changes in my garage, will the car drive to wherever I need to take it to get it tuned, or would I have to get it towed there.

edit : I do feel comfortable replacing part A with part B myself.

Yah, I'm a nub at this stuff.
I've repaired my own car before, but it's really only been replacing busted parts with working parts.
To answer the first question, with Stage II mods or below, a drive prior to tuning isn't always dramatic. For turbo upgrades it is sometimes possible to 'limp-mode' until getting the tuning set, but with great care. A tune should be lined up ASAP.




That being said, at this point I think those types of mods should be the least of your worries.

First, most of the knowledgeable people on this forum have been putting wrench to car for most of our adult lives, and even still we fear the inumerable unknowns about doing modifications on the mechanical or electrical side, and rely on this knowledge base to trouble-shoot problems.

Attempting even a simple downpipe swap yourself is something I would advise against. People who go it alone for a first-year model tuning typically know enough about cars to make ends meet. We consider these to be simple cars to modify not because it is easy, but because we've seen worse.

I didn't know this beforehand, but when you joined this forum you described performance levels you would like to reach that would equate to about 350whp. Though you had never been that fast before, you had seen it on YouTube and it sounded neat on paper.

Again, most of the guys putting down that kind of power have at least some experience with performance car driving prior to a 350whp Subaru/Mitsubishi. This is not 'practical' power. It is way more than you are likely to use where you live. You were in fact amazed at what a 240whp STI could do. You were right to be amazed, a stock STI can blow the doors off of almost anything shy of a supercar.

But that is a perfectly reasonable place to start. As you get used to the performance improvement over your '90s era Honda, you may slowly feel you can handle more power. Having the car 'stuck' in stock mode is like saying the SR-71 is 'limited' by kinetic heating. It is still a very fast, and potentially dangerous car. I know you think you are a good driver, but we are talking about 3-4 times the power of your old Honda. You might not feel the changes of inertia, pedal and steering wheel feel that an experienced driver would know means the car is understeering/oversteering or the tires are breaking loose.

If I sound condescending, it is because for the safety of yourself, your passengers, the car you are driving and others on the road; it is my opinion that giving you 350whp in short order would be like handing a loaded gun to someone who'd seen them used in the movies.

The important thing should be to pick a car that you like to drive. Drive it for a while, study it, and enjoy the performance advantage that these vehicles have over 90% of everything else out there. Note: if a car still excites you on its level of performance, it is because you are driving right on the edge of your abilities and the adrenaline is pumping through you. If the excitement dies, come back and talk about tuning and modifications. For now we'd love to hear about test-drives, the purchase of a new car (pics!), driving experiences.

Buying a car based on what kind of performance it can produce on paper is pretty pointless. The driver is a factor in all of these figures. Its like buying that paintball gun that was so impressive that you couldn't use it.

Similarly, modifications are running the risk of voiding warranties, and reducing your goal of 250,000 trouble-free miles. There will be exhaust leaks, broken swaybar brackets, and the absolutely impossible intercooler inlet hose. You may experience significant fuel economy drops. There are lots of things to consider.

You came here for expert opinions. Sorry if you have to take the bad with the good. But one thing we would not do to the best of our ability is put you in a questionable situation.
User avatar
WANGAN_X
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 786
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Post by WANGAN_X »

+1 like i said your goals in performance are easily achieved in stock evo's and sti's

and +100000000000000 on the driver is the most important -100 on the once you aren't scared, when you feel comforable is different than not being scared once your not scared is when you push over the edge
scheherazade
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 am
Location: nova

Post by scheherazade »

I pretty much agree.

I'm not one of those people that have been messing with engines my entire life, so I just don't know what makes a good car and what makes a bad one.
Knowing the limits of the vehicles helps me know how much headroom each of them have for growth.

I am trying to look ahead.
Basically I want the doors to be open to whatever I might want in the future.
Keep in mind that most my upgrade talk is me trying to learn about what future potential the cars have. (and I generally just want to know more about it)
Going into this I was afraid that some of the cars on my list would have limited potential. You all have made it pretty clear none of them are a weak link.

I only know what I want now. I don't know what I'll want in the future.
I'm not loaded enough to re-buy a different car if I decide that I want a higher performer. I want to cover all my bases so I don't have to lament my previous choices.

My plan is to drive like a granny the first 5k miles, then drive it normally another 5 (normally including having some fun with it). At that point it should be broken in, and I can assess what I want to do with it. That should be close to a year of experience with car.

I definitely agree that a stock STI or EVO is good enough for me.

Although I would like the LGT to be as fast as those. This is really the only case that I would be expecting to upgrade.

As far as making a decision, this thread has taught me that I'm not going to make it on 'technical merit'. They are all good cars, and I am very much looking forward to the test drives.



legasleeper <<

Yah, about that paintball gun...
That's *exactly* what I'm afraid of.
I'll step into doo-doo because I have the wrong impression about something. I've done it before and I'll do it again.
You know better than I do, so by all means, make me listen if I'm making a mistake.

You bring up another point. Even if upgrades are possible, the process might include so much work, so many caveats, and potential damage, that I need to consider "which cars would I be OK with driving stock if I decided I'm too afraid of screwing up the upgrades".
In a sense I think that's what people meant when they said "Your performance goals would be met out of the box with an EVO or STI". I just didn't realize the significance of that statement.

-scheherazade


p.s. I'm definitely no racer, but I'm no stranger to (purposefully) sliding my crappy honda around :P. Growing up I off-roaded a lot in my go-cart (you're rolling your eyes I'm sure :P). What I'm saying is : In terms of feelings, I will do things like counter steer without thinking about it, and I will play with the throttle to deliberately increase/decrease my yaw. There's a world more to know than what I know, but I'm not totally helpless, honest!
GaToR
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 873
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:56 pm

Post by GaToR »

WANGAN_X wrote:+1 like i said your goals in performance are easily achieved in stock evo's and sti's

and +100000000000000 on the driver is the most important -100 on the once you aren't scared, when you feel comforable is different than not being scared once your not scared is when you push over the edge
+1+100000000000000-100 = 99999999999901 w00t!
User avatar
WANGAN_X
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 786
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Post by WANGAN_X »

lol... in fact roflmao
User avatar
Sabre
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 21432
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Springfield, VA
Contact:

Post by Sabre »

scheherazade wrote:
Sabre wrote:lol, you just made a friend ;) That was my last M/B (which is now in my fiance' computer). That was a great board!
let me guess...
evga 680i
or
striker extreme / p5n32-e
-scheherazade
Nope, Gigabyte M59SLI-S5 :)
Sabre (Julian)
Image
92.5% Stock 04 STI
Good choice putting $4,000 rims on your 1990 Honda Civic. That's like Betty White going out and getting her tits done.
scheherazade
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 am
Location: nova

Post by scheherazade »

Sabre wrote:
scheherazade wrote:
Sabre wrote:lol, you just made a friend ;) That was my last M/B (which is now in my fiance' computer). That was a great board!
let me guess...
evga 680i
or
striker extreme / p5n32-e
-scheherazade
Nope, Gigabyte M59SLI-S5 :)
Good for you.
680i was a world of trouble. Took months for bios updates to sort out all the issues. nvidia makes great video cards, but I think their reference motherboard designs have steadily declined in quality since nforce 1/2. Looking back I should have gone with a 500 series chipset too.

I wish AMD had a better product these days so I could go back.

-scheherazade
User avatar
Sabre
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 21432
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Springfield, VA
Contact:

Post by Sabre »

This will probably be my computer for awhile now and so far I've been very impressed with this combo (The M59, AMD x2-6000, 2G OCZ, and a 8600GTS).
Sabre (Julian)
Image
92.5% Stock 04 STI
Good choice putting $4,000 rims on your 1990 Honda Civic. That's like Betty White going out and getting her tits done.
User avatar
Phibs
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: Sterling, VA
Contact:

Post by Phibs »

Image
Bryan
2012 WRX 5-Door Limited
GaToR
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 873
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:56 pm

Post by GaToR »

:lol2:
scheherazade
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 am
Location: nova

Post by scheherazade »

INTERESTING!

http://www.potamkinusa.com/potamkin/ny/ ... r-evo.aspx

Evo X has a semi-closed deck, not an open deck!
Bodes better for any future upgrades.

-scheherazade
User avatar
drwrx
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 4382
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:00 pm

Post by drwrx »

scheherazade wrote:Evo X has a semi-closed deck, not an open deck!
Bodes better for any future upgrades.
That really shouldn't be a concern. The EJ205 (the engine in the USDM 02-05 WRX) was an open deck design and there are many, many people who get very good power out of them (300+ whp) and they continue to run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Unless your thinking 400+whp the open deck, closed deck argument just doesn't matter that much.

I hate to do this but I have to ask, do you really understand the differences between open, semi closed and closed deck designs and how those differences relate to power and reliability?
scheherazade
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 am
Location: nova

Post by scheherazade »

One other thing to notice in that link, the date that the dealer has on their order. January 20. That's the closest estimate I've seen anywhere about availability. All the reviews say "Q1" or "early 08".



drwrx <<

My understanding:
An open deck won't have re-enforcement on the outside of the cylinder, so it should be more prone to flexing from internal pressure.
More flexing means the metal gets worked more, so eventually it can get stressed too much.


You might as well know exactly what I had in mind.

I was thinking that for the evo or sti, I could eventually get something like this :
http://www.vishnutuning.com/evoIX_Subzero_v380.htm

A simple drop-in replacement. Nothing major done to the car, and I could go back to stock easily to boot.

Not knowing the actual power that people were talking about when they were saying 'the open decked engine was going to be poor for power upgrades', I got worried that a mod like this could be too much.

Since then, you and legasleeper informed me that basically people are talking about turning the cars into race cars, not just chip upgrades.
Thanks for putting numbers to the deck stuff.

It seems like one more factor that speaks to potential longevity/toughness. I can appreciate having it, even if I'll never need it.

-scheherazade
User avatar
drwrx
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 4382
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:00 pm

Post by drwrx »

In an open deck design the area around the cylinders is 'open' to the head gasket, the block is manufactured with water jackets located between the walls of each cylinder and the adjacent outer walls of the engine block. It allows for high levels of cooling and will warm quickly and disapate heat rapidly. Open deck engine blocks do have shortcomings. Foremost, the top of such blocks lack rigidity and can warp during extereme operation of the engine.

A semi closed deck includes support material between some of the cylinder wall and the adjacent outer engine block walls. This is often achieved by "sleaving" the cylinders. It improves the rigidity of the top of the engine block yet does not significantly restrict coolant flow between the engine block and the other engine components. However, this system also has issues as the reduced water jacket volume will not allow the engine to reach it's operating tempature as rapidly, and does not allow the higher levels of cooling as the open deck design. Also, the process of sand casting closed and semi-closed deck blocks is much more costly than die cast open deck blocks and are far more prone to variances and imperfections. Newer die casting techniques have also improved the strength of open deck blocks.

Take a look around NASIOC in the 2.0 turbo charged section and you will find all sorts of deep forums of folks who have gone very far with the open deck engine. And when a failure does occur, it is almost always ringlands, not a cylinder wall failure. That said, the current line of WRX/LGT/STI all run semi closed decks, and they have been proven to be very stout even at 450+ whp.
User avatar
Sabre
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 21432
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Springfield, VA
Contact:

Post by Sabre »

Of note, the only closed deck that Subaru has ever made was the 22t, aka, the JDM Legacy 2.2L turbo motor.

Closed decks offer a the most reinforcement of the cylinder walls, but also the least cooling.
Sabre (Julian)
Image
92.5% Stock 04 STI
Good choice putting $4,000 rims on your 1990 Honda Civic. That's like Betty White going out and getting her tits done.
scheherazade
DCAWD Groupie
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 am
Location: nova

Post by scheherazade »

drwrx<<

Thanks for taking the time to explain.
I really appreciate it.
It seems like one of those things where a balance is best.

sabre <<
I wonder if Subaru planned that 2.2+closed for something special.
Or maybe things just didn't work out.

-scheherazade
User avatar
Sabre
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 21432
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Springfield, VA
Contact:

Post by Sabre »

I think they just wanted a rock solid design, hence the closed deck, but only they can tell you for sure. Tuners look for those though and punch them out to be 2.8l :shock:
Sabre (Julian)
Image
92.5% Stock 04 STI
Good choice putting $4,000 rims on your 1990 Honda Civic. That's like Betty White going out and getting her tits done.
User avatar
drwrx
DCAWD Founding Member
Posts: 4382
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:00 pm

Post by drwrx »

scheherazade wrote:I was thinking that for the evo or sti, I could eventually get something like this :
http://www.vishnutuning.com/evoIX_Subzero_v380.htm
Honestly, Vishnu would be the last recommendation I would make. Not that I think his stuff isn't any good, it's that being in CA, you are less than likely to get decent support if you ever needed it and there are no local places that sell or support the XFlash.

A simple Stage 2 STI with a turbo-back exhaust ($500-$1000) and a reflash for as little as $130 would get you better numbers than those. I'm sorry, but $750 is way too much for a reflash!
Post Reply