New parts need a new tune

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:32 pm

Currently I have a reflash from a tune done by Jeff. I am getting
a new turbo and injectors. What are my options as far as a tune goes?
I can keep the v2 accessport if that would make it happen, otherwise
I'd like to sell it. Any opinions greatly valued!

Post by **Sabre** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:55 am

You can do either another reflash or you can keep the AP and work with that. Either way, it's basically a reflash of your ECU.

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:01 pm

personally, I'd keep the AP. your stuff = your call

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:37 pm

Using the AP v.2 to tune does have some advantages. Real-time, on the fly logging and mapping and sitchable maps w/o needing a laptop are all pluses.

But really, it is up to you. If you have a good relationship with a tuner you trust and your a "set-it and forget it" kind of guy ypu probably could sell the AP and just stick with a re-flash.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:20 pm

The tuner moved to CA which is why I am hunting for options now. Who would do an AP2.0 tune for a good price? Or an eginuity tune for a good price would also be acceptable.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:00 pm

I'm sure you can find lots of folks that can tune you quite well. P-Tuning, Mach V/Ultimate, AMS Tuning, etc.

The rub for you is that you are putting in injectors and a turbo which means you will not run well w/o some sort of MAP to get you to the shop.

You could call around and see if one of the shops could e-mail you base MAP to upload so you could get there, or just have them do the install as well.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:12 pm

Think saving money here

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:24 pm

AMS is Offering $50 off custom dyno tuning for *ALL* Subarus; 2002-2007. Total price of $300 for a custom dyno tune, valid through July 2007 only! Stock ECU custom flashes - no piggy back required. Includes everything from fuel / timing / avcs (Active Valve Control System) to stock and aftermarket boost solenoid tuning. Also available for cars running aftermarket injectors and larger turbos.

EFI Certified pro tuner as well as Cobb ProTuner and dealer.

Please do not hesitate to post or PM if you have a specific question.

Located at 8001 Queenair Dr., Gaithersburg, MD 20879

Thanks,
Mike @ Atlantic
1888-AMS-1788 or local 301-869-7700

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1297107

I realize your a bit late for this, but if you talk to them now and say you can bring it in when your done with your install and maybe give them some money up-front they might honor the price. $300 for a dyno tune is a good deal. My bet is you paid around $250 for Jeff's tune, correct?

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:03 pm

Yeah $250.

Assuming the offer for help/guidance installing my new parts at your turbo garage still stands, how far is AMS from there?

btw I called AMS and the normal rate of $350 would apply either
stock reflash or AP2.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:10 am

From my place it would be about 25 miles. However, a turbo, injectors and TMIC can easily be an all-day affair and, if done on a saturday, would leave you without a tune until monday at the earliest. If you can get a base map that wouldn't be a problem.

I'm happy to help but I should point out that I have never done STi injectors. I've heard they are much easier than WRX injectors, which IMHO are a huge PITA. The turbo should be easy enough baring any issues with oil and coolant lines. If Julian helps out the time may be cut in half as he has done more turbo swaps than any human being on the planet and can now do it in his sleep. The TMIC will be very frustrating but if we have two or three sets of hands it will be much easier.

Post by **Sabre** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:59 am

I could lend a hand in it

Injectors are 45 minutes the first time you do them b/c of all the damn brackets that you remove.

My last turbo install was 3.5 hours.... but yours will definitely be longer since you haven't removed the turbo before. I'd plan on 5-7 depending on a lot of factors.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:31 am

woo thanks guys!
Now if gruppe-s would just SHIP my parts....

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:21 pm

So I just talked to gruppe-s. They told me all the parts for my turbo are in and they are currently assembling and balancing it. What exactly does that mean and is that legit? Am I buying the wrong turbo from the wrong people?

zaxrex · Post by **zaxrex** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:46 pm

Trust me, you want them to balance the rotating assembly. Even if it is a lie, you can hold them to it later when your shaft goes "whhheeeeeeee...Ptthhhbbbdd"

I would have thought that Gruppe-S had inventory of assembled items, though. I have been out of the game so long, I'd have to toipnt out Darrin on that.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:47 pm

The helix RR500 was on back order and they just got the parts last week supposedly.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:08 pm

It is likely that they (Gruppe-S/Helix) are getting the intake housing and 20G internals from Mitsubishi (or a Mitsubishi of North America supplier) and getting the exhaust housings from another source, so the units may very well need to be assembled. Balancing a turbo requires some very specialized tools (a hypersonic balancer for example) and some skill. Any mistakes can mean death for a turbo. A misbalanced turbo will not live long.

It is possible that there is a backlog on the subaru specifiic TD06 exhaust housing. Not long ago only Forced Performance and Deadbolt were selling them. Now there are many vendors who offer the TD06-20G, with both 7cm and 8cm housings. Apparently, turbochargers.com has not had the 8cm TD05 housing available for some time and just recently started filling their backlog of orders. My guess is that there are only a handfull of manufacturers for those housings and now the demand has outstripped supply. It is possible that if you contacted FP or Deadbolt or Blouch or Slowboy you may find that they are all on "backorder" as well.

But at least it looks like there is light at the end of the tunnel. Have you done any legwork on getting a basemap that would allow your car to run on the bigger injectors so you can get to a tuner? If you get a MAP you can use my tactrix cable to upload it to your ECU. You will also need a laptop and ECUFlash as well.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:51 pm

I have been trying to get one from Jeff but he doesn't seem to be checking email very often. Have you had any contact with him lately?

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:33 am

I haven't talked to Jeff since before he left for the left coast.

You could hop on www.enginuity.org or openECU.org hunt the forum board and see if anyone has a map for your size injectors, then see if they will let you borrow or rent their MAP until you get tuned. The injectors are the issue, not the turbo. If you have 720cc injectors and run map for 860cc injectors you are in far more danger than if you have the correct injector scaling and an 18G but are runing a 20G (you just have to keep your boost down).

There is a guy on enginuity.org called "ray@revitup" who has an STI running a td06 20g on perrin 816cc injectors. He also has a formula on how to scale 850cc injectors properly for stock-like driving. You could try contacting him. It appears he works for www.turbotektuning.com

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:33 am

Phibs wrote:I have been trying to get one from Jeff but he doesn't seem to be checking email very often. Have you had any contact with him lately?

I have to call him today. I will ask for you.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:07 pm

Oh man

> We've got a problem with the turbos that are out for assembly... the
> turbine housings aren't machined right so the performance of the turbo is
> going to be effected due to the clearances being off. The turbo shop
> assembling the turbos noticed this when they were doing the final
> balancing. This is the same problem that Forced Performance had earlier
> this year strangely enough. That being said, we are working on getting in a
> new batch of the turbine housings but they won't be available for quite
> some time.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:16 pm

Bad news bro, I'm sorry to hear it.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:17 pm

They did offer the Forced Performance TD06 20G at hte same price to compensate me... is that gonna be as good as the FP Green?

http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/subeng/TD06.htm

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:04 pm

Phibs wrote:They did offer the Forced Performance TD06 20G at hte same price to compensate me... is that gonna be as good as the FP Green?

No, the Green is essentialy a TD06-20G with a 49lb exhaust wheel vs. the standard 44lb wheel. The standard TD06H-20G is good for 350-360whp on pump gas on a dynojet. The FP Green is around 370-380whp, and the FP Red is 400+whp.

If they are offering you the FP TD06-20G for $999 that's a good deal. FP sells them for $1,165. Just make sure to get the 8cm housing version. It will likely depend on whether or not they have them in stock. You could also ask how much more for the FPGreen. Or send the 20G out to either FP, Blouch or Deadbolt and have the exhaust wheel clipped.

As I recall, the Helix R500 was very siimlar to the 20G in whp on Gruppe-S' dyno. The Helix had more peak torque (even more than the FP Green) and hit it earlier, but it was very similar to the 20G's whp. albeit a bit more.

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:07 pm

drwrx wrote:
Phibs wrote:They did offer the Forced Performance TD06 20G at hte same price to compensate me... is that gonna be as good as the FP Green?
No, the Green is essentialy a TD06-20G with a 49lb exhaust wheel vs. the standard 44lb wheel. The standard TD06H-20G is good for 350-360whp on pump gas on a dynojet. The FP Green is around 370-380whp, and the FP Red is 400+whp.

If they are offering you the FP TD06-20G for $999 that's a good deal. FP sells them for $1,165. Just make sure to get the 8cm housing version. It will likely depend on whether or not they have them in stock. You could also ask how much more for the FPGreen. Or send the 20G out to either FP, Blouch or Deadbolt and have the exhaust wheel clipped.

As I recall, the Helix R500 was very siimlar to the 20G in whp on Gruppe-S' dyno. The Helix had more peak torque (even more than the FP Green) and hit it earlier, but it was very similar to the 20G's whp. albeit a bit more.

Sorry to hear about your order problems. Curious, does the FP TD06-20G have the same thrust bearing setup as the FPGreen? And I forgot to call Jeff at noon....I was having lunch w/ Julian and Ross...yeah, the Indian food went right through me

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:25 pm

Oh, saw this guy was selling his FPGreen. Not sure if it is exactly what you are looking for but if it is maybe you can work out a deal:

Thread Linky

DCAWD.com

New parts need a new tune

New parts need a new tune

Local selling his FPGreen on Nabisco