Larger TMIC

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:08 pm

Would like to buy a larger TMIC for eventual use with an FP Green.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:53 pm

I say just go grab one of the ebay TMIC's.
They're $270 and they're proven to work.
They are, however, a very difficult install.
Get two friends to help you, you'll need them.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:14 pm

What was that turbo you said to consider vs the FP Green?

And this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/02-06-Su ... enameZWD1V

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:37 am

Yes, that is one of the TMICs available on ebay. There are several out there, some are even less than that.

As for turbo options, here's a list of one's that are bolt-on stock position turbos that would not require TGV-Deletes or a 3" intake hose:

The FP Green: It is esentially a TD06H-20G with a 49lb wheel instead of the 44.5lb wheel. It comes with either an 8cm housing or 7cm housing. (go with the 8cm). It will net around 360-380 whp. on a Dynojet dyno.
http://store.forcedperformance.net/merc ... WRXFPGREEN

The Frank 50: Very similar to the FPGreen. It has a 50lb. wheel instead of a 49lb. wheel which should add a bit more power. Both are $1,399
http://www.turbochargers.com/store/prod ... cts_id=459

The Dominator 1: Again, very similar to the FPGreen/Frank 50. It also has a 49lb. wheel and is $1,375
http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/WRX_S ... nator_1.0/

Also, if your looking to save some cash and are willing to give up a bit of power (15-20 whp) the 8cm TD06H-20G would be a fine choice. FP has them for $1,165.
http://store.forcedperformance.net/merc ... =WRX-Turbo[/url]

Lastly, Helix makes a FP Green clone as well for $999. It is a TD06H-20G with an 8 cm housing and a 49lb wheel. Here is the only available write-up so far:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... 4096&pp=50
Here's Gruppe-S' page with their info, but you may want to call about availability, Helix Turbos are often on back-order.
http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/subeng.htm

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:57 pm

drwrx wrote:Yes, that is one of the TMICs available on ebay. There are several out there, some are even less than that.

As for turbo options, here's a list of one's that are bolt-on stock position turbos that would not require TGV-Deletes or a 3" intake hose:

The FP Green: It is esentially a TD06H-20G with a 49lb wheel instead of the 44.5lb wheel. It comes with either an 8cm housing or 7cm housing. (go with the 8cm). It will net around 360-380 whp. on a Dynojet dyno.
http://store.forcedperformance.net/merc ... WRXFPGREEN

The Frank 50: Very similar to the FPGreen. It has a 50lb. wheel instead of a 49lb. wheel which should add a bit more power. Both are $1,399
http://www.turbochargers.com/store/prod ... cts_id=459

The Dominator 1: Again, very similar to the FPGreen/Frank 50. It also has a 49lb. wheel and is $1,375
http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/WRX_S ... nator_1.0/

Also, if your looking to save some cash and are willing to give up a bit of power (15-20 whp) the 8cm TD06H-20G would be a fine choice. FP has them for $1,165.
http://store.forcedperformance.net/merc ... =WRX-Turbo[/url]

Lastly, Helix makes a FP Green clone as well for $999. It is a TD06H-20G with an 8 cm housing and a 49lb wheel. Here is the only available write-up so far:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... 4096&pp=50
Here's Gruppe-S' page with their info, but you may want to call about availability, Helix Turbos are often on back-order.
http://www.gruppe-s.com/Subaru/subeng.htm

It says it needs water and oil cooling. Do we have water lines for our turbos? Where does the water come from

Also, if you don't mind finding a recommended TMIC on ebay I'd appreciate it. Tubing included would be best.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:12 pm

Phibs wrote:It says it needs water and oil cooling. Do we have water lines for our turbos? Where does the water come from

Yes, stock Subarus have water and oil lines already.
Some of the turbos above may use the stock lines or may require you to swap in other water and oil lines.

Phibs wrote:Also, if you don't mind finding a recommended TMIC on ebay I'd appreciate it. Tubing included would be best.

A good option for a TMIC that you can trust is here:
http://www.ssautochrome.com/level.itml/icOid/1438
scroll down about 3/4 of the way down and you will find the WRX TMIC kit with piping for $199. SSautochrome makes good stuff and has some customer service, which is better than anything you'll get from an ebay vendor.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:59 pm

Yeah that TMIC link is great, I'll order one when I get back from Vacation and I guess install it since it won't hurt even without the new turbo.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:14 pm

Anyone else find any more reviews on that HELIX? Gruppe-s never seemed to post full #s

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:33 pm

Actually I found more data they finally posted it in another thread on NASIOC. I will be getting the Helix as soon as I can find someone who wants to purchase my current Stock STI IC and VF39. Anyone interested

Looks like I'll do:

Larger TMIC, Ssautochrome
Fuel pump + Injectors
Helix RR500

Currently have:

Cobb TBE w/ HF Cat
Cobb Intake

Anything else help with my setup for a good price?

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:46 pm

Post it up on the "private for sale" section. If no one on our board grabs it, you will certainly find a taker on NASIOC.

hotsam · Post by **hotsam** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:08 am

Phibs wrote:Actually I found more data they finally posted it in another thread on NASIOC. I will be getting the Helix as soon as I can find someone who wants to purchase my current Stock STI IC and VF39. Anyone interested

Hmm...STi conversion for my LGT...?

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:24 pm

Go for it, I've got most of the parts you'd need

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:29 pm

hotsam wrote:
Phibs wrote:Actually I found more data they finally posted it in another thread on NASIOC. I will be getting the Helix as soon as I can find someone who wants to purchase my current Stock STI IC and VF39. Anyone interested
Hmm...STi conversion for my LGT...?

That is what I would do. I can help you design and fabricate a custom splitter ducting. I have autocad and some tools at my disposal. I need to make a better splitter for my TMIC anyways. The one I have now works but I just threw it together in a couple minutes so it is not perfect.

hotsam · Post by **hotsam** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:08 pm

Phibs wrote:Go for it, I've got most of the parts you'd need

Including the manifold, throttle body, turbo inlet, and BOV?

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:15 pm

Lol I said most not all

hotsam · Post by **hotsam** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:23 pm

I don't think I'm ready for this right now anyway...because I'd also need to do the uppipe and downpipe, and some other things...easily a long 2 day job.

Uppipes and downpipes I can do in my sleep, but the conversion would require a lot of thought.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:54 pm

If your thinking of upgrading your LGT I would say get a Perrin TMIC and a LGT specific turbo. (the STI tmic is 405 c.u. the Perrin LGT TMIC is 450 c.u.)

The Perrin TMIC is $700 and an 18G upgrade for the vf40 for $650. That, along with some headers, up-pipe and turbo-back will get you to near 300whp and it saves a huge amount of work swapping out intake manifold, throttle body, turbo inlet, BOV and trying to figure some way to fab a hood scoop that will work with STi TMIC. If your really looking for power, there is the LGT specific TD06-18G for $1,450 and 20G for $1,550. You would certainly want some higher flowing injectors to support those, but they would be good for about 330whp and 350whp respectively.

Yes, they are more expensive than the 18G and 20G available for WRX/STI/FXT, but there is something to be said for ease of install, fitment and not having to reinvent the wheel.

hotsam · Post by **hotsam** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:04 pm

Agreed, but I do like the challenge of the swap and how it looks. I know it's not the best way to go performance-wise.

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:13 pm

hotsam wrote:Agreed, but I do like the challenge of the swap and how it looks. I know it's not the best way to go performance-wise.

Sorry still OT but...

I would have to agree w/ Darrin on going w/ LGT specific parts. The only swap I would do would be the 6spd tranny, axles, driveshaft, hubs, and brembos if anything. I would drop my forester in a heartbeat if we got an legacy STi wagon in the states. Not sure how I would fare if the Forester STi came in as well. Tough choice between the two. Basically, it would come down to power and room...probably still get the LSTi wagon...especially if it looked anything like the sedan:

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:00 pm

So I am back from vacation and getting closer to upgrade time. Does the Helix RR500 look like a better bet than the FP Green, Frank 50, et al? Everything I have read seems to indicate this is the case but I want to double check with you guys.

Also, still have my stock parts available. IC, VF39, exhaust, AP 2.0, etc...

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:29 am

The best write-up on the RR500 is from Gruppe-S:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... elix+RR500

Here is the summary:

We are very pleased with the results of the RR500 testing. The original testing cannot be taken into consideration because there was a wastegate flapper issue. This caused some erroneous assumptions for the turbo. Once this problem was resolved, the power curve of the turbo became substantially better as did the response. We see the RR500 as the best choice for a stock location turbo for the STI.

Results – The test car was running 100 octane mixed with 91 octane, for a ~98 octane mix. The boost pressure was increased to about 24-25 psi tapering to 20-21psi at redline. AFR and tune was kept to a very conservative 11.5:1, which given the octane is about what you’d want to run to be conservative on the street. The results are exactly what’d a customer would leave with.

HP: 353whp
TQ: 366wtq

Comparison to the 20G TD06 – The RR500 has a similar spool up to a 20G but has much more top end potential pushing more midrange torque thus resulting in a much flatter and broader horsepower curve. According to the owner of the car, the RR500 feels very similar in terms of response to the TD05-20G (much smaller turbo) which is impressive to say the least. Note the flatter and broader HP curve from 5000rpm

Comparison to the FP Green – The RR500 spools and responds considerably better than an FP Green. Comparing the torque you can see that response and power before 5900RPM is substantially better than the green. This is probably due to the green’s larger and heavier wheels, which hurts performance before 5900RPM but allows for more top end power after 6000RPM. Given the small difference in area from 6000 to redline I would venture to say that running a more aggressive AFR on the RR500 can potentially make up the majority of the difference in power, giving the RR500 a much better area under the curve for a stock block 2.5 STI on 100 octane gas.

Comparison to the SZ55 “Big Boy wheel” – Keeping in mind the RR500 is not a magical turbo, the results are as one would expect from a 55lbs compressor wheel versus the RR500. The RR500 makes less torque and horsepower after 5000rpm. That said one must note the tremendous difference in area under the curve before 5000RPM. My personal opinion is a Subaru owner would be much better served with a GT30R as opposed to the SZ55, as the GT30R offers better spool, much improved boost response, and more top end power potential. The SZ55 doesn't make sense to me, I would either go RR500 or GT30R, unless a stock location turbo was an absolute necessity, in which case I may consider the FP red...

Hope this gives you guys a clear idea of the performance capabilities of the RR500. If the exchange rate holds for the rest of the year (115:1) Helix has agreed to offer the RR500 for the original MSRP of $1199, which should mean a retail of $999. We should be seeing our first shipment mid September.

Based on the numbers above I would say the Helix RR500 clearly out-shines the 20G and I would say it is a better performer "under the curve" than the FP Green. The benefit of this turbo is the taller/wider torque curve. The few other dyno numbers I have seen on this turbo also indicate that the torque curve is NOT a fluke. What shocks me is that I would have expected the FP Green to spool about the same but have less top-end, and theses results indicate the opposite. Helix RR500: 353 whp 366 ftlbs. spools quicker with much better torque but less top-end hp. FP Green: 364 whp 341 ftlbs. To be honest I think the Helix is the better choice of the two. 25 ft lbs more torque with a broader curve with only a 10 whp deficit in only the last 1,000 RPMs would make it my choice. I expected the the SZ55 to have about 25-30 more whp and that was the case almost exactly, but the fact that the RR500 matched the SZ55's torque at 500 RPMs sooner was another surprise. Also, given the high octane used in the tests (98, 91 and 100 mixed), I think the RR500 would probably outperform the FP Green on 93 pump gas and would likely come a bit closer to the SZ55. Lastly, at $999 the helix RR500 is a $400 savings over the FP Green at $1,399 and half the price of the SZ55 $1,999 which makes it very appealing. One last thought, this test used a FMIC which helps larger tubos get higher peak whp numbers. With a TMIC the peak whp of the FP Green and SZ55 may drop closer to the RR500.

However, there is one caveat, Forced Performance and the Green have been around for quite a while and their track record is excellent. Helix has made great products in the past, and I don't see a reason to think this will not be, but they have no track record with turbos, this is their first.

One question, why sell your AP 2.0? Tuning a real-time MAP with the AP 2.0 is much easier than doing a Flash from scratch and it would allow you to have several maps to switch from easily (race gas, low octane, alky injection, etc.) not to mention a stock map to fall back on just in case you "have to." Do you need the cash that badly? If so, perhaps you may want to think twice about doing such a serious upgrade to your car as the parts and tuning are certainly not cheap.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:46 pm

I want to sell the AP 2.0 because I only ever run two maps. Stock and tuned. I found myself never really using the map switching capabilities and with the enginuity software and cable I can still do that. If I am missing something definitely let me know

Thanks for the thoughts on the Helix, I think I will
be giving it a shot.

Phibs · Post by **Phibs** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:22 am

Btw the Helix mentions this:

We highly recommend the use of a BIG MAF and aftermarket turbo inlet hose with this turbo charger.

I have the cobb intake is that large enough? Also, what turbo inlet hose would I require? Also do I stick with an IWG or EWG and what would be the benefit / cost ?

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:42 pm

Phibs wrote:Btw the Helix mentions this:

We highly recommend the use of a BIG MAF and aftermarket turbo inlet hose with this turbo charger.

I have the cobb intake is that large enough? Also, what turbo inlet hose would I require? Also do I stick with an IWG or EWG and what would be the benefit / cost ?

sounds like good questions for Helix. but who knows, the Dr is a cornucopia of information.

Post by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:59 pm

Phibs wrote:Btw the Helix mentions this:

We highly recommend the use of a BIG MAF and aftermarket turbo inlet hose with this turbo charger.

I have the cobb intake is that large enough? Also, what turbo inlet hose would I require? Also do I stick with an IWG or EWG and what would be the benefit / cost ?

BIG MAF is used when you run the stock MAF static... I'd try to stay with the stock one if you could for tuning.

The inlet hose is required generally to make the install easier or if you end up going with a 3" inlet (stock one is 2.4"). FYI, most say you need to do TGV deletes if you go 3".

EWG give you a little more power, but are much louder unless you pipe them back into the DP. IWG's look stock and require no repiping