Getting tuned Oct. 12th at Agile Automotive

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:54 am

Well, I called Agile to talk to them about getting some basic maps so I can get there on my Perrin modified injectors and managed to get in a week earlier to get a very needed retune. Hill will be working his magic on my car that day.

www.agileauto.com

The mods for the tune are the following:

-'04 OEM STi ECU
-'04 STi Cobb AP
-'04 OEM STi Uppipe
-'05 OEM STi Axleback
-WBR FMIC
-WBR CAI w/ K&N cone filter
-Perrin Modified 820cc injectors (flow tested w/ data)
-VF39
-Helix 3" Catted DP
-Daddy's Maddad 3" SS intermediate pipe w/ flex joint
-Walboro 255lph fuel pump
-'04 OEM XT exhaust manifold (header)

I was hoping to get the WBR 3" modular axleback before the tune but not sure if that will happen.

Also, do you think it will matter much I don't install an '05 OEM STi exhaust manifold and just go w/ the XT exhaust manifold? I am thinking that if I stay w/ the XT manifold then I will spool a little faster and have a little bit better torque down low...if I go w/ the STi manifold then I will have a little bit better flow at the top end which will only matter if I am doing over 100mph which I don't need to be doing.

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:54 am

I will be happy right at 280WHP and 300+ft/lbs. Just want a good solid tune.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:13 pm

I don't think you will have any problem hitting your target numbers on Agile's dyno.

I remeber Chris (DamWagon/DamSedan) had a very similar set-up with a perrin TMIC and hit just shy of 300 whp on Ultimate's Dynojet with a safe somewhat "off the shelf" map. That said, he did have a different exhaust.

With those 820cc injectors your car screams for a TD06 20G or bigger!

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:19 pm

drwrx wrote:I don't think you will have any problem hitting your target numbers on Agile's dyno.

I remeber Chris (DamWagon/DamSedan) had a very similar set-up with a perrin TMIC and hit just shy of 300 whp on Ultimate's Dynojet with a safe somewhat "off the shelf" map. That said, he did have a different exhaust.

With those 820cc injectors your car screams for a TD06 20G or bigger!

Chris had a catless 3" TBE and borla headers.

Yeah, one day possibly a GT30R...but for now I will stick w/ the cheap and plentiful used VF39s

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:24 pm

His headers vs. your FMIC is probably a wash.
Catless will make a difference, how much will remain to be seen.

Are you thinking rotated GT30R?

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:55 pm

drwrx wrote:His headers vs. your FMIC is probably a wash.
Catless will make a difference, how much will remain to be seen.

Are you thinking rotated GT30R?

AFAIK, the "R" at the end of "GT30R" stands for Rotated, but I could be wrong...does happen once a leap year.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:21 pm

The R nomenclature comes from Garrett to differentiate the ball-bearing "roller" units.

For those who ever wanted to be able to "read" and have an understanding of Garrett's wacky name scheme here it is.

For example, the GT3082R:
GT- is for Garrett Turbo
30- indicates the turbine inducer wheel diameter. (30 being larger than 28 but smaller than 35)
82- indicates the turbine exducer (exhaust) wheel measured in MM. "often refered to as the trim wheel"
R- is an indication of a ball-bearing unit.
S- is used for units which require some differentiation from units in the same family. For example, the GT2860R and GT2860RS are both ball bearing and externally similar. However the GT2860RS is better suited for higher-flow applications than the GT2860R. In this case, the S reflects the higher-flowing nature of the GT2860RS.

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:51 pm

drwrx wrote:The R nomenclature comes from Garrett to differentiate the ball-bearing "roller" units.

For those who ever wanted to be able to "read" and have an understanding of Garrett's wacky name scheme here it is.

For example, the GT3082R:
GT- is for Garrett Turbo
30- indicates the turbine inducer wheel diameter. (30 being larger than 28 but smaller than 35)
82- indicates the turbine exducer (exhaust) wheel measured in MM. "often refered to as the trim wheel"
R- is an indication of a ball-bearing unit.
S- is used for units which require some differentiation from units in the same family. For example, the GT2860R and GT2860RS are both ball bearing and externally similar. However the GT2860RS is better suited for higher-flow applications than the GT2860R. In this case, the S reflects the higher-flowing nature of the GT2860RS.

I knew all this, just wanted to see if you knew it as well.

Thanks for the info...and that's one to grow on!

Post by **Sabre** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:40 pm

Yep, with that mod list, you should definitly be able to hit the numbers you want. I can't tell you how much I would consider a Green/Red/SZ instead of the GT30R though. Having a rotated setup, while cool looking, doesn't really offer that much of a benefit and the costs associated with the jump are not worth it IMHO.

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:02 pm

sabre wrote:Yep, with that mod list, you should definitly be able to hit the numbers you want. I can't tell you how much I would consider a Green/Red/SZ instead of the GT30R though. Having a rotated setup, while cool looking, doesn't really offer that much of a benefit and the costs associated with the jump are not worth it IMHO.

I had my eye on the FPgreen before but the cost swayed me away...rather go for the $250 used VF39.

I have always wanted a twinscroll setup which will require more custom work and $$$.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:03 pm

sabre wrote:I can't tell you how much I would consider a Green/Red/SZ instead of the GT30R though. Having a rotated setup, while cool looking, doesn't really offer that much of a benefit and the costs associated with the jump are not worth it IMHO.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

I find myself telling folks that so often that I feel like a broken record sometimes.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:27 pm

May I recommend: Blouch TD06 20G: $1,050.00

www.blouchturbo.com

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:19 pm

drwrx wrote:May I recommend: Blouch TD06 20G: $1,050.00

www.blouchturbo.com

Thanks for the link...may go w/ this upgrade:

http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/IHI_V ... r_Upgrade/

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:17 am

UPDATE:

My original PDX email tune I had was dyno'd at 255WHP 280ft/lbs (done on mustang dyno).

My new Agile Protune is 274WHP and 286ft/lbs (done on dynapack dyno and yes on both dynos a stock STi did 240-250WHP).

Hill is very knowledgeable and did multiple dyno passes to come up w/ these numbers. He explained to me the issues of what was happening and how to achieve more reliable power. After the dyno tuning we took it out on the road and he asked me if anything needed to be tweaked. I honestly told him I would have to get used to the new tune before I could make a judgement call.

My car has some issues the first being the moddified injectors. Hill says that they tend to drip so to counteract the misfires at idle he set my idle to 1000-1100RPMs. Yes, that is a little high (vs.) the stock idle of 500-600RPMs. He said the protuning couldn't set the base parameters on the ECU for the new injectors for idle and it was set for the stock 550cc injectors...or something to that extent (he can chime in).

Second issue was that Hill was stating that there was absolutely no detonation when it was on the dyno but that the knock sensor was picking up metal-to-metal contact near the sensor. He said that if I could figure out what the contact was and fix it, then I could see ~30ft/lb gain.

Third issue is originally I was running the limp map to get up to Agile after installing the Perrin Modifieds and got the flashing "cruise" and "CEL" light. Check the codes and got "#2 cylinder misfire detected" and "?????" codes. After the Protune I only get the "?????" from what the AP reads. I took it by AutoZone but I don't think the guy using the OBD-II reader really knew what he was doing b/c he cleared my CEL but couldn't find any error codes. I am going to have my friend bring in his OBD-II scanner...if that doesn't work I will take it to a dealership for them to find out what this "?????" means. Hill said it was probably the injector(s) and that if I don't want the code than I should (a) put back in the stock XT injectors or (b) get a set of Helix or similar injectors that are made (not modified) to flow 800cc.

The car still has a semi-rough idle but smooths out immediately once you give it gas. And it is still a little choppy through the RPMs but hopefully that will be fixed after the ECU learns a little bit more. I may go back up to Agile for Hill to take a look at the tune again to maybe try to help smooth out the tune a little bit more at the low end (below 2500RPMs). Not sure my plans about the injectors but will need to get that rectified before my next inspection.

The power kicks in a little later (300-500RPMs) due to the new FMIC (which I expected to happen). Not sure if the car feels more powerful b/c it feels like a smooth, linear flow of power all the way to redline. Haven't gotten any chances to really test it out.

I will post the graph when I get a chance to scan it in.

Post by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:39 am

I'm really suprised that they can't smooth out that idle any. They are reprogramming the ECU, so I don't understand "protuning couldn't set the base parameters on the ECU". I've never heard that the modded injectors "drip" either... My idle was spot on at 750 all the time with those injectors

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:42 am

sabre wrote:I'm really suprised that they can't smooth out that idle any. They are reprogramming the ECU, so I don't understand "protuning couldn't set the base parameters on the ECU". I've never heard that the modded injectors "drip" either... My idle was spot on at 750 all the time with those injectors

Not sure...hopefully figuring out the "?????" will fix it. I posted up on Nasioc so hopefully I will get some good feedback as to what is going on.

Post by **complacent** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:46 am

That is a wierd code "????" Does teh OBD-II not speak Japanese?

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:38 pm

complacent wrote:That is a wierd code "????" Does teh OBD-II not speak Japanese?

No, the COBB AP just doesn't pick up all CEL codes.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:21 pm

You wouldn't be first to have issues with moddified injectors.
There have been many posts from folks who couldn't get them to scale perfectly, had lumpy acceleration and/or had to raise the idle speed.

There are lots of theories, the most popular is that one or more of the injectors is flowing considerably more than the others.

Hill's suggestion of picking up no-modified 820cc injectors is the standard solution. Some others say have the injectors flow tested (or re-tested) and see where the numbers come out. If one or two are wildly off, more than 10% or so, remove the errant injector(s) and get a few more preferably ones pre-flow tested and match the closest.

Also, some engines are very "noisey" and are prone to "false knock" mine is a very good example. I get a lot of low level knock episodes on my UTEC, but if the knock threshold is raised slightly they never come back. I had a buddy who's WRX was also very knock prone. Later, he had to remove his intake manifold and found a bolt sitting between the intake manifold and the block. After the install was complete (and the bolt removed) he never had another knock episode.

If you don't get an opportunity to get your buddy to pull your CEL with his OBDII tool by next tuesday (I think that's the next HT meet) I'll be happy to bring mine.

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:32 pm

drwrx wrote:You wouldn't be first to have issues with moddified injectors.
There have been many posts from folks who couldn't get them to scale perfectly, had lumpy acceleration and/or had to raise the idle speed.

There are lots of theories, the most popular is that one or more of the injectors is flowing considerably more than the others.

Hill's suggestion of picking up no-modified 820cc injectors is the standard solution. Some others say have the injectors flow tested (or re-tested) and see where the numbers come out. If one or two are wildly off, more than 10% or so, remove the errant injector(s) and get a few more preferably ones pre-flow tested and match the closest.

I was thinking of doing that but after I find out what the "?????" code means.

Also, some engines are very "noisey" and are prone to "false knock" mine is a very good example. I get a lot of low level knock episodes on my UTEC, but if the knock threshold is raised slightly they never come back. I had a buddy who's WRX was also very knock prone. Later, he had to remove his intake manifold and found a bolt sitting between the intake manifold and the block. After the install was complete (and the bolt removed) he never had another knock episode.

I also have the stock engine mounts which are much softer than the STi stock mounts. Maybe upgrading mounts will help.

Hey Julian, do you think that bracket over #4 fuel injector could be setting off the knock sensor or is that too far away?

If you don't get an opportunity to get your buddy to pull your CEL with his OBDII tool by next tuesday (I think that's the next HT meet) I'll be happy to bring mine.

Sounds good to me. Thanks.

......inserted replies.......

Post by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:40 pm

sirwilliam wrote: Hey Julian, do you think that bracket over #4 fuel injector could be setting off the knock sensor or is that too far away?[/color][/b]

If you don't get an opportunity to get your buddy to pull your CEL with his OBDII tool by next tuesday (I think that's the next HT meet) I'll be happy to bring mine.

Sounds good to me. Thanks.

Quite possible! Told you not to put it back on

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:55 pm

sirwilliam wrote:I also have the stock engine mounts which are much softer than the STi stock mounts. Maybe upgrading mounts will help.

A set of Group-N Engine Mounts usually go for about $95. So the price isn't too bad. I have no idea how difficult the install would be however.

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:15 pm

sabre wrote:
sirwilliam wrote: Hey Julian, do you think that bracket over #4 fuel injector could be setting off the knock sensor or is that too far away?[/color][/b]

If you don't get an opportunity to get your buddy to pull your CEL with his OBDII tool by next tuesday (I think that's the next HT meet) I'll be happy to bring mine.

Sounds good to me. Thanks.
Quite possible! Told you not to put it back on

Yeah, yeah...will take it off when I get the chance

zaxrex · Post by **zaxrex** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:15 pm

There was an interesting bit in SCC a few months ago. You can inject 3M's urathane window adhesive into the voids of your tranny mount, or burn out the rubber and replace it with this stuff to make your own set of stiffer mounts.

That appealed to the tinkerer in me...

sirwilliam · Post by **sirwilliam** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:43 pm

zaxrex wrote:There was an interesting bit in SCC a few months ago. You can inject 3M's urathane window adhesive into the voids of your tranny mount, or burn out the rubber and replace it with this stuff to make your own set of stiffer mounts.

That appealed to the tinkerer in me...

Hmm? I have been a guinea pig on stuff recently so this may be plausible for me.