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Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:21 pm
by complacent
according to this chromium blog post, google is going to drop all support for the H.264 codec in chrome.

why would they do this, you ask?

according to google, it's to "promote open development" amongst web content.

ahem... you mean the "open development" for web content like the adobe flash plugin embedded in chrome?

yea... that "open development" model.

what a crock of shit google! i like chrome. but i also own a ps3, an iphone, an apple tv and two android devices. wanna know what single codec plays on every single stinking one of these devices? that's right, H.264. can't say that about any other popular video codec.

great, awesome. you keep right up with that "do no evil" crap. :roll:

sorry for the rant. the urine level in my corn flakes is rising. :evil:

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:31 pm
by ElZorro
i think its a dumb move... let the community develop and maintain it, pull it in, check it, push bug fixes back out, and send to your customers. its not that big of a deal.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:35 pm
by Sabre
I can kind of (barely) see their side to this. H.264 just extended the royalty rights for people to encode things using it to 2016... then what? Are they suddenly going to charge everyone? They could. WebM is an open standard that isn't encumbered by that and won't be in the future. In a lot of ways it does remind me of Apple refusing to put Flash on iOS. It's proprietary and takes a ton of CPU power. HTML5 is the future, despite Adobe and M$ trying their hardest to prevent it.

That being said, there is a TON of stuff that is encoded using H.264 and it is a great CODEC. They really are shooting themselves in the foot on this one by not at least giving it legacy support.

<looks at his OGG collection>hehe</looks at his OGG collection>

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:52 pm
by complacent
i totally understand why they're doing this. that being said...

the thing that pisses me off is they're going to push a technically inferior codec over a great codec.

standards aren't so horrible a thing. why the :censor: did they wait so long to enter this fight any damn way? show me an hd camcorder that doesn't default to h.264. or a blu ray. or an apple device. or most portable video players. or most set top boxes. i've got every stick of media that i own in h.264. if google had intended to "do good" they should have done so when there wasn't a prevalent standard for compressing hd video.

it's okay to pay for something that is good, is established and works well. no shame in that at all.

whether google maintains their own codec or they license the h.264 codec, it's still coming out of the same set of advertising dollars earned. do they have to try and do everything on their own?

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:23 am
by Sabre
Opera Welcomes Google's Move To Drop H.264 Support
In other news, Complacents head spins off his body. :lol:

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:38 am
by complacent
seriously? argh.

it's about quality people... quality.

*throws hands in the air, storms out of the room*

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:43 am
by Sabre
Given time, WebM might catch up with H.264, we'll see.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:03 pm
by complacent
i can't believe i'm going to say this...

i agree with microsoft's opinion on chrome dropping h.264.
Microsoft Client Platform team member Tim Sneath jabbed Google for its decision to drop H.264 support in HTML5 for Chrome in favor of WebM. He compared it to a country deciding to drop English as a language in favor of artificial languages like Esperanto and Klingon. The remarks pointed out the irony of claiming to promote openness and choice by artificially removing the most practical, popular option.

"Though English plays an important role in speech today, as our goal is to enable open innovation, its further use as a form of communication in this country will be prohibited and our resources directed towards languages that are untainted by real-world usage," he joked.

He also underscored the gap between actual usage and Google's claims that WebM was well adopted, pointing out that Esperanto had broad use by "as many as 10,000 speakers."

The criticism echoes that of many commenters following Google's abrupt change in policy. Most mainstream accessible HD video both online and off today is encoded in H.264 and would need to be either transcoded or put into a Flash container to be viewable in Chrome. Some developers and video editors have said they plan to abandon Chrome as an explicit target since they would have to support at least two and possibly three video implementations to get Chrome to work.
bolded is my doing. and it addresses the point well. :lol:

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:18 pm
by Sabre
wa' jaj loD tlhIngan Hol DIchDaq taH Hol vaD qo'

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:24 pm
by complacent
Sabre wrote:wa' jaj loD tlhIngan Hol DIchDaq taH Hol vaD qo'
it will not! >:P

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:47 am
by Sabre
Some great articles coming out on this.
Ars Tech article - Google's dropping H.264 from Chrome a step backward for openness
Network World - In HTML5 war, Microsoft guy slams "President of the United States of Google" - similar to the one Colin posted above
On Chrome Dropping H.264 - Piece on why it's actually good.

Since we've quoted so many bad things above, here is one of the paragraphs that does make you think abou the other side:
H.264 Trouble
H.264 is problematic and bad for the web for many reasons I’ve mentioned here before as well as great posts by roc and shaver. I’ll leave it at that rather than rehash.
There was buzz a while back about H.264 being “free” (quotes intentional), but it’s not really “free” if you read the fine print. As Peter Csathy of Sorenson Media notes:
But, you say, MPEG LA recently announced that it will no longer charge royalties for the use of H.264. Yes, it’s true – MPEG LA recently bowed to mounting pressure from, and press surrounding, WebM and announced something that kind of sounds that way. But, I caution you to read the not-too-fine print. H.264 is royalty-free only in one limited case – for Internet video that is delivered free to end users. Read again: for (1) Internet delivery that is (2) delivered free to end users. In the words of MPEG LA’s own press release, “Products and services other than [those] continue to be royalty-bearing.”
That’s hardly “free”.
That’s just one potential use case that’s now royalty exempt. The reason they are doing that is presumably if they can get H.264 adoption high enough, all the other cases will be paying and therefore subsidizing this one case.
WebM is licensed a little different: Patent wise, it’s irrevocably royalty free. License is about as liberal as you can get.
There’s no proprietary html, css, or images (GIF was, now it’s dead) used across the web. Why should video be any different? The key to success and growth has always been an open platform that’s low cost and encourages innovation.
As I said above, I wish they had kept support for H.264 for legacy reasons, but I totally understand why they decided to drop it in favor of WebM.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:43 pm
by complacent
i guess my big question is this: why is it soooooooooo awful to pay for a good product?

what the living :censor: is wrong with selling a product for a profit?

furthermore - ignoring the existing usage of h.264 is really stupid. look at all the devices that use it right now. there are tons of them!

why force everyone off of something existing? especially when it just works.

where are the hardware encoders for webm? oh that's right, they don't exist yet.

so every mobile device on the planet can't use it without decoding in software. :censor: ing brilliant!

you think flash sucks on android? guess what webm is going to do until you buy new hardware?

or how about webm encoding tools? see anything free, that works well yet? (think handbrake) no? boy, that's weird. :roll:

what about the people that already have all their content encoded in h.264? both end users and content providers? force them all to re-encode?

while i understand google's rationale for this... it's also very disruptive to the end user, very disruptive (and expensive!) to the content provider and very very good for google, first and foremost.

this whole thing is conveniently self-serving.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:03 pm
by complacent
Sabre wrote:
As I said above, I wish they had kept support for H.264 for legacy reasons, but I totally understand why they decided to drop it in favor of WebM.
One final quip and I'm done here (promise!) -

Chrome was created to make money. Don't forget that when evaluating Google's stance on this.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:58 am
by Sabre
The Ambiguity of “Open” and VP8 vs. H.264
Google has recently announced their intention to remove the H.264 video codec from its Chrome browser. This decision has been smeared as an evil campaign for controlling video on the web, akin to not-invented-here syndrome. It’s also been lauded as the push that the web needs to remain open and free. Mostly, it’s been marked as inconsistent, due to the bundling of Adobe’s proprietary Flash player.

Richard Stallman doesn’t like the term Open Source because it fails to embody the true meaning of “free software”, and the one thing that’s worse is the word “open”. This debate can’t simply be labeled as one for or against openness (even ignoring the technical details).

H.264 is an open standard. It was developed by a committee, standardized, reviewed by many engineers and developers for multiple companies and has been standardized for use with a multitude of containers and devices. However, H.264 is not royalty free. Software patents in many countries restrict the distribution of software that utilizes the codec to those who pay the MPEG-LA.

VP8 is not a standard. It was developed secretly by a single company, and until recently, had only a single working implementation. The public wasn’t open to collaboration on the specification until the bitstream spec was frozen, including the bugs that existed within. Now, the source code and reference implementation are available under liberal licenses, and all the related patents are irrevocably royalty-free.

Adobe Flash, while not synonymous with a video codec (unless you mean .flv flash videos, which are either VP6 or Sorenson Spark), is going here anyway because everyone feels like comparing it. Flash’s SWF format is not standard, but it is open. There are a few implementations (Swfdec, Gnash, GameSWF, Gordon, etc), but none of them are as complete as the official proprietary implementation. There’s a bitstream specification that anyone can read to create an independent implementation of the player. Implementing and using the Flash player is still royalty-free (Since the Flash VM can decode H.264, obviously that part, not controlled by Adobe still has royalties), anyone can make software that can export SWF animations without paying Adobe.

Code: Select all

Implementation vs. Distribution

Or: How Bundling Flash doesn’t violate the Novikov self-consistency principle

Name	  Standardization	  Implementation	Distribution	Dev History
Theora	Standardized?	    Open Source	   Royalty Free	Mostly Open
VP8	   Not Standardized	 Open Source	   Royalty Free   Mixed
H.264	 Standardized	     Open Source	   Royalties	   Open
Flash*	Not Standardized	 Proprietary	   Royalty Free	Proprietary
...

Often, the argument against VP8 is that it’s inferior to the H.264 codec, and to me, this seems like the most ideologically valid concern. But in a lot of cases, it stems from a misunderstanding of how H.264 works. H.264 is not a single video codec (not even to mention multimedia container formats), but rather has several Profiles that work on different devices and implementations. Rarely are videos encoded only in MPEG-4/AVC H.264 Extended Profile at 1080p and 60fps. Go on the Apple store and you’ll see that every iPod device you can find (including the iPhone), includes what video codecs are supported. And it doesn’t just say H.264, but rather, something much more wordy like

Video formats supported: H.264 video up to 720p, 30 frames per second, Main Profile level 3.1 with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats

For the insanely great iPhone 4. Google is meaner and doesn’t make the information about profile support on the Nexus S quite as accessible (though it’s not the only reason I’m an iPhone user), but it should be safe to assume it’s something along the lines of what the iPhone 4 supports. The iPod Classic has a nice, even longer string, that represents even less support for H.264:

H.264 video, up to 1.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second, Low-Complexity version of the H.264 Baseline Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats; H.264 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second, Baseline Profile up to Level 3.0 with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats;

This is because very few devices can actually utilize all the great features that H.264 defines. Wikipedia has a nice pretty chart. So the point of all of this is to say, even though VP8 is inferior to H.264 from a purely technical standpoint, you probably can’t just use the Main or Extended profiles to support all the devices that “support H.264″. Does this invalidate the inferiority argument? Nope. Dark Shikari said “I expect VP8 to be more comparable to VC-1 or H.264 Baseline Profile than with H.264″. But the large number of devices that support H.264 might actually only support the baseline profiles.

...

VP8 is a bit worse than H.264, and had it been a patent encumbered video format, there would be almost no reason to prefer it over AVC. The <video> part of the HTML5 specification states:

It would be helpful for interoperability if all browsers could support the same codecs. However, there are no known codecs that satisfy all the current players: we need a codec that is known to not require per-unit or per-distributor licensing, that is compatible with the open source development model, that is of sufficient quality as to be usable, and that is not an additional submarine patent risk for large companies. This is an ongoing issue and this section will be updated once more information is available

The only major codecs that are royalty free are Theora and VP8, and the former probably isn’t of sufficient quality. Both of them come with patent risks (or at least that’s what MPEG-LA wants people to believe), leaving a set of zero acceptable codecs. For this to work at all, something needs to be compromised.

H.264 defines a baseline profile that all decoders could be reasonably expected to handle. Such a profile exists so that the video can be viewed, albeit with inferior compression on a variety of devices and platforms with limited computational ability. The internet was built on interoperability, and HTML5 needs an equivalent “baseline codec” for the web. Something that compresses video at sufficient, though not bleeding-edge quality. Something that can be implemented and distributed openly on all platforms.

Great read and he seems to really try to cover all the bases.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:10 pm
by Sabre
Availability of WebM (VP8) Video Hardware IP Designs
Hello from the frigid city of Oulu, in the far north of Finland. Our WebM hardware development team, formerly part of On2 Technologies, is now up-to-speed and working hard on a number of video efforts for WebM.
VP8 (the video codec used in WebM) hardware decoder IP is available from Google for semiconductor companies who want to support high-quality WebM playback in their chipsets.
The Oulu team will release the first VP8 video hardware encoder IP in the first quarter of 2011. We have the IP running in an FPGA environment, and rigorous testing is underway. Once all features have been tested and implemented, the encoder will be launched as well.

WebM video hardware IPs are implemented and delivered as RTL (VHDL/Verilog) source code, which is a register-level hardware description language for creating digital circuit designs. The code is based on the Hantro brand video IP from On2, which has been successfully deployed by numerous chipset companies around the world. Our designs support VP8 up to 1080p resolution and can run 30 or 60fps, depending on the foundry process and hardware clock frequency.

The WebM/VP8 hardware decoder implementation has already been licensed to over twenty partners and is proven in silicon. We expect the first commercial chips to integrate our VP8 decoder IP to be available in the first quarter of 2011. For example, Chinese semiconductor maker Rockchip last week demonstrated full WebM hardware playback on their new RK29xx series processor at CES in Las Vegas (video below).
The WebM video hardware IP designs support encoding and decoding WebM/VP8 video up to 1080p resolution. Implemented as RTL source code (VHDL or Verilog), both WebM IP designs are available under a no-cost license. Please complete the request formto find out more.
So you complete the form and they send you the RTL. Freaking awesome of them to just give away a reference design for hardware and make it free.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:10 pm
by Sabre
M$ comes to Colins' rescue :rolllaugh:

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:21 pm
by complacent
i absolutely agree with M$ on this one. good on 'em.

hater. >:-P

furthermore, if microsoft is willing to write plugins for chrome, what does that say about their concern about getting actual content to users?!?

it means they're worried about people not being able to view content. that's a big statement coming from the company that sells more operating system licenses than anyone else...

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:54 pm
by Sabre
complacent wrote:it means they're worried about people not being able to view content.
:rolllaugh: :rolllaugh: :rolllaugh: :rolllaugh: :rolllaugh:

You honestly believe this? H.264 was built by Apple, Microsoft, and others, and is licensed by MPEG LA... so they are only doing it because it means more money in their pockets further down the line. I'm telling you, come 2016 a lot of people are going to make a ton of money off of H.264 because it is NOT free...

Just for shits'n'giggle's, I went to the MPEG LA site... here is a quote:
MPEG LA's AVC/H.264 Patent Portfolio License provides access to essential patent rights for the AVC/H.264 (MPEG-4 Part 10) digital video coding standard used in set-top boxes, media player and other personal computer software, mobile devices including telephones and mobile television receivers, Blu-ray DiscTM players and recorders, Blu-ray video optical discs, game machines, personal media player devices, still and video cameras, subscription and pay-per view or title video services, free broadcast television services and other products. To align with the real-world flow of AVC/H.264 commerce, reasonable royalties are apportioned throughout the AVC/H.264 value chain. The License employs annual limitations to provide cost predictability, threshold levels below which certain royalties will not be charged in order to encourage early-stage adopters and minimize the impact on lower volume users or demo products, and certain licensing options that require no royalty reports.
Just because something is "the standard" does not make it the best choice. The dictatorship in Egypt was the "standard" and we all know that wasn't the best thing. H.264 is not being as widely developed as WebM, so I have a feeling that WebM will pass it in very short time for video quality.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:36 am
by complacent
one word: indemnification.

has google offered indemnification to anyone who develops or uses their new product?

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:58 pm
by Sabre
Fucking MPEG LA
MPEG LA Announces Call for Patents Essential to VP8 Video Codec
MPEG LA Offers to Facilitate Development of a Joint License to Provide Coverage Under Essential Patents
(DENVER, CO, US – 10 February 2011) – MPEG LA, LLC, world leader in alternative one-stop patent licenses, announces a call for patents essential to the VP8 video codec specification used to deliver video images. The VP8 video codec is defined by the WebM Project at http://www.webmproject.org.

In order to participate in the creation of, and determine licensing terms for, a joint VP8 patent license, any party that believes it has patents that are essential to the VP8 video codec specification is invited to submit them for a determination of their essentiality by MPEG LA’s patent evaluators. At least one essential patent is necessary to participate in the process, and initial submissions should be made by March 18, 2011. Although only issued patents will be included in the license, in order to participate in the license development process, patent applications with claims that their owners believe are essential to the specification and likely to issue in a patent also may be submitted. Further information, along with terms and procedures governing patent submissions, can be found at http://www.mpegla.com/main/pid/vp8/default.aspx.

VP8 Specifiation

The VP8 Specification is described in the following document, including any and all amendments: VP8 Data Format and Decoding Guide, WebM Project, Revised: February 4, 2011 (http://www.webmproject.org/media/pdf/vp8-bitstream.pdf).
So essentially they are looking for patents that the VP8/WebM CODEC might require so that they can buy them and make sure no one can use it or charge an arm and a leg for... and you think the H.264/MPEG LA isn't harmful? Just wait to they decide to pull the plug in 2016 on the royality-free stuff on H.264. I saw a link to this article too which predicted this.
:notcool: :evil: :notcool: :evil: :notcool: :evil: :notcool: :evil:

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:25 pm
by complacent
this is the point where i invite you to re-read my previous post.

if google wants this to win out, they need to provide everyone down the entire vp8 chain (end users, content creators, content distributors, hardware manufacturers, etc) some form of legally-binding guarantee that vp8 will be "safe" to use.

the same phrase can be used in reverse: :censor: ing google! how dare they lay waste to an already good product just so they can divert more money to google!

i'm not in the least bit surprised by this. imagine this scenario:

company a: most people are licensing our tech. it works well, and is wildly adopted.

company b: we're going to make company a completely obsolete by making a competing product and giving it away for free.

company a: eff that noise!

i guess my bigger question is this - who would you rather your money go to? google or someone else? with an increasing frequency, google is absolutely laying waste to entire industries with their free products... the only one who wins in all of this is google. the race to a free bottom isn't a good one, inherently.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:46 pm
by Sabre
I've been meaning to respond to you comments for awhile, but wanted to check a couple of things first :) Looks like WebM is licensed under a BSD license (ya!). Here is the part that is interesting:
Source

Additional IP Rights Grant (Patents)

"This implementation" means the copyrightable works distributed by Google as part of the WebM Project.

Google hereby grants to you a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, transfer, and otherwise run, modify and propagate the contents of this implementation of VP8, where such license applies only to those patent claims, both currently owned by Google and acquired in the future, licensable by Google that are necessarily infringed by this implementation of VP8. This grant does not include claims that would be infringed only as a consequence of further modification of this implementation. If you or your agent or exclusive licensee institute or order or agree to the institution of patent litigation against any entity (including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) alleging that this implementation of VP8 or any code incorporated within this implementation of VP8 constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, or inducement of patent infringement, then any patent rights granted to you under this License for this implementation of VP8 shall terminate as of the date such litigation is filed.
Here is the full license:
Software License

Copyright (c) 2010, Google Inc. All rights reserved.

Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.

Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

Neither the name of Google nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
From this we can gather a couple of things:
Google cannot be sued if anything should happen (this is the same clause that EVERYONE uses to protect themselves)
Google gives up all rights to what you do with it and will not seek legal action against you on any of the patents they own related to VP8
Google gives up all rights to any future patents it may file that be used in VP8 for the user.

While they will not protect you if someone else comes after you for legal action for anything else, the license protects you from being sued for anything related to the VP8 codec.

M$ is willing to write a plugin for Chrome because they have a monetary stake in H.264 (they make money off the licensing). So of course they want people to use it. Same for Apple. Google does not make any money off of the licensing of VP8. They cannot make money off of patent lawsuits from it (like M$, Apple and MPEG-LA do).

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:12 pm
by complacent
Sabre wrote:I've been meaning to respond to you comments for awhile, but wanted to check a couple of things first :) Looks like WebM is licensed under a BSD license (ya!). Here is the part that is interesting:
Source

Additional IP Rights Grant (Patents)

"This implementation" means the copyrightable works distributed by Google as part of the WebM Project.

Google hereby grants to you a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, transfer, and otherwise run, modify and propagate the contents of this implementation of VP8, where such license applies only to those patent claims, both currently owned by Google and acquired in the future, licensable by Google that are necessarily infringed by this implementation of VP8. This grant does not include claims that would be infringed only as a consequence of further modification of this implementation. If you or your agent or exclusive licensee institute or order or agree to the institution of patent litigation against any entity (including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) alleging that this implementation of VP8 or any code incorporated within this implementation of VP8 constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, or inducement of patent infringement, then any patent rights granted to you under this License for this implementation of VP8 shall terminate as of the date such litigation is filed.
While they will not protect you if someone else comes after you for legal action for anything else, the license protects you from being sued for anything related to the VP8 codec.
i'm not entirely sure what the bolded section is stating. the verbiage is incredibly fucking confusing. is it saying that google will indemnify you against a patent-based lawsuit or not? the only things i can clearly get out of that paragraph is the fact that you can use/modify with no fear of google coming after you. and you can't sue someone based on vp8 and still retain a patent-license. the bitstream license is similarly worded. most google searches i've tried all return results that vp8 does not in fact offer indemnification. i
Sabre wrote:M$ is willing to write a plugin for Chrome because they have a monetary stake in H.264 (they make money off the licensing). So of course they want people to use it. Same for Apple. Google does not make any money off of the licensing of VP8. They cannot make money off of patent lawsuits from it (like M$, Apple and MPEG-LA do).
while google doesn't make money directly from the licensing of vp8, it would be foolish to say that they're doing it for the "greater good" or whatever. google is doing this solely so they can make more advertising dollars. their a business.

and while we're on the topic of who's making money licensing h.264, let's look at the whole list.

it's a veritable who's who of tech giants. some of whom currently manufacture android-based hardware.
Apple Inc.

Cisco Systems Canada IP Holdings Company

DAEWOO Electronics Corporation

Dolby Laboratories Licensing Corporation

Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute

France Télécom, société anonyme*

Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft zur Foerderung der angewandten Forschung e.V.

Fujitsu Limited

Hewlett-Packard Company

Hitachi, Ltd.

Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.

LG Electronics Inc.

Microsoft Corporation

Mitsubishi Electric Corporation

NTT DOCOMO, INC.

Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation

Panasonic Corporation

Polycom, Inc.

Robert Bosch GmbH*

Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.

Sedna Patent Services, LLC

Sharp Corporation

Siemens AG

Sony Corporation

Tandberg Telecom AS

Telefonaktiebolaget LM Ericsson

The Trustees of Columbia University in the City of New York

Toshiba Corporation

Victor Company of Japan, Limited

so all of these companies have joined together to maintain a standard for video to be implemented across the world. there are even two universities listed!

i'm not seeing how the perceived wisdom of google is better than all of these organizations combined. furthermore, buying into h.264 does buy you indemnification against patent-based lawsuits. this article sums it up quite well.

have you seen how much this "evil" indemnification costs? it's quite trivial, given the scale of things. from the article:
How much do software makers and content providers have to pay the patent pool holders (via MPEG LA)? I reviewed the Summary of AVC License Terms, which sets out the royalties to be paid for different uses of the technology. (You can find all the MPEG LA documents here.) A perusal of the rates in that agreement indicates that the fees are not outrageous at this time. For example, here’s a breakdown of the royalties that must be paid if you use H.264 as part of a subscription-based video service. The amounts are charged annually and are based on the number of subscribers:

* 100,000 or fewer subscribers = no royalty
* 100,001 to 250,000 subscribers = $25,000
* 250,001 to 500,000 subscribers = $50,000
* 500,001 to 1,000,000 subscribers = $75,000
* greater than 1,000,000 subscribers = $100,000

Do the math. If you have 350,000 subscribers, your annual royalty cost per subscriber is a little over 14 cents, or 1.2 cents per month. Not exactly exorbitant.

What if you’re a software developer? Assuming you’re building a “branded encoder and decoder products sold both to end users and on an OEM basis for incorporation into personal computers but not part of an operating system,” here’s the fee schedule:

* 0 - 100,000 units per year = no royalty
* US $0.20 per unit after first 100,000 units each year
* above 5 million units per year, royalty = US $0.10 per unit.

The maximum annual royalty (“cap”) for an enterprise as of 2010 is $5 million per year. Update: For 2011-2015, the maximum annual royalty has increased to $6.5 million.

If you’re distributing fewer than 100,000 copies, you pay nothing. Beyond that, you pay up to 20 cents per copy.
take microsoft for an example. they lost a patent lawsuit to i4i. it is expected to cost microsoft $290 million dollars. it doesn't take much more than that to show how patent governing bodies can be helpful.

this is a global organization. i fail to see how webm is better. i know it's not perfect, but it's already everywhere and it's safer.

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:51 pm
by Sabre
WSJ article. Basically, the government is not seeing how EVIL MPEG LA is and is trying to do something about it.

Interesting quote that gives points to Colins position:
The threat of future lawsuits has helped persuade some companies to forsake VP8. Apple's chief executive, Steve Jobs, explained in an email to the Free Software Foundation last year that a patent pool was assembled to "go after" a previous open-source format.
"All video codecs are covered by patents," Mr. Jobs wrote. "Unfortunately, just because something is open-source, it doesn't mean or guarantee that it doesn't infringe on others patents."

Re: Chrome dropping support for H.264? Yup. WTF?

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:59 pm
by complacent
i meant to post that article for you... i figured you'd read it :)

seriously, if a company isn't protected globally from patent issues, they're not going to use it.

if google can offer that (global patent indemnification), people will adopt it. especially if it's free. i definitely think it's one of those "if you build it, they will come." examples.

but you still have to get around hardware-based decoding, quality concerns and retooling of your business/content creation/distribution models. that's going to take time.

the ball is totally in google's court. maybe they can overcome the obstacles i listed above. maybe they just want to undercut costs and are doing so at the expense of mpeg-la.

an interesting tidbit that i read regarding the cost of buying into h.264 vs. receiving royalties for "owning" a part of h.264:
Several comments speculated about Microsoft’s financial interest in the codec. (Microsoft participates in MPEG-LA with many other companies.) Microsoft pays into MPEG-LA about twice as much as it receives back for rights to H.264. Much of what Microsoft pays in royalties is so that people who buy Windows (on a new PC from an OEM or as a packaged product) can just play H.264 video or DVD movies. Microsoft receives back from MPEG-LA less than half the amount for the patent rights that it contributes because there are many other companies that provide the licensed functionality in content and products that sell in high volume. Microsoft pledged its patent rights to this neutral organization in order to make its rights broadly available under clear terms, not because it thought this might be a good revenue stream. We do not foresee this patent pool ever producing a material revenue stream, and revenue plays no part in our decision here.
why on god's green earth would the world's largest software company do such a crazy (in google's eyes) thing? they're clearly not buying into h.264 for the money... interesting, yes?

(original article can be found here, btw.)