illegal exhaust = jail.

Audi too loud or not loud enough?

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avriette
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illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by avriette »

Darrin, you may want to revise your opinion about the OEM catback (from SPT, of course). It is available in dealers as a purchase-price item. That is, you can have that part (as well as the SPT intake) delivered on your car. This weekend (I made a post then, but I think it went splat because I closed the window without submitting), I was threatened with outright arrest and "forcibly removing you from the car, handcuffing you, putting you in the back of my vehicle and from there to jail." I wish I was embellishing.

On Saturday we were returning from a funeral in Ashton (BFE) and I happened upon what looked like a traffic stop where the offender had just pulled away. Having noted the cop, I looked down and checked my speedo, and I noticed I was going 55 (yes, I drive like an old woman most of the time). As we pulled away, I kept my eye on the cop muxed with traffic. Sure enough, the turn signal came on and he did one of those hat-trick manouvers they all do, and accelerated at what must have been WOT. He immediately came to my trunk, when I put one hand up in the car so he could notice I had seen him. I turned on my hazards, and slowed to 45. The cop was never further than six front from me after that.

The shoulder of 66 inbound from the spur off of 267 was not only soaking wet, but it was cold, and of course it's a "soft shoulder" with lots of gravel. I didn't stop on the shoulder, waved my hands in the rearview to let him know I was still aware he was there. I proceeded to get off at the exit before Westmoreland (I think... it's the first exit on the inbound 66 after the spur), and the cop went completely batshit insane. He jumped the curb, a con, and a inter-lane barricade to put his car in front of mine. (Remember, both of us had been very close, and had never exceeded 45)

I was then stopped on the ramp, and the cop rushed out of the car, hands on his weapon, but not drawn (I have a carry permit, which shows up any time my license is checked in VA; I customarily get asked "are you carrying?" when I get pulled over) and came to my window, which I rolled down. He was out of breath and said "What the (expletive) are you doing?" I told him that I was pulling to the next exit because I didn't feel the shoulder was a safe place (and I really worried that we'd rain gravel on his car!). He gets all assertive and says something akin to "you're going to that driveway there, and stay in it till you're arrested." Wow, I thought, what happened?

I pull next to him after parking on the indicated driveway, and asked him to explain. After telling me to shut up a bunch of times, he finally answered the question, saying he had been using his radar gun and my car was louder than his gun. Sure enough, he said, when he looked at the radar, there were cars speeding, and I wasn't one of them. Because I was not speeding and I was loud there was no doubt that my car was illegal, specifically illegally loud. How's that for some of the most backwards logic you've ever heard?

I confirmed that I was not speeding. He asked me for PAPERS PLEASE and I gave him everything. He came back and said, okay, you're getting arrested for fleeing arrest and an illegal muffler ($30 ticket...). I explained that in every drives ed class I've had, they say, if you're a woman and it's dark, pull to the nearest lit[/i] offramp, and stop, leaving your hands on the wheel (which I did except for the XX chromosomes). I also added to this that the MSF courses say the same thing, and I was conscientiously signaling to him with my hand, hazards, and slowing down. He said (correctly) that I am not a woman, and that he didn't think the shoulder was unsafe (but due to the muffler ticket, I deigned not to tell him that the car was powerful and tricky in situations like that), and that I should have pulled over.

He told me I had been fleeing arrest for 1.3 miles and he had to cancel the call for backup(!) that was coming after me, "low-speed chase". At any rate, he runs the plate (it's my wife's!) and my infos and whatever else and notices, correctly, that I am not the sort of guy who does that. He then gets down to the muffler. I said, hey, grab a flashlight, and you'll see it's got Subaru written on it. Let me show you under the hood, the seats, the intercooler and intake, the giant (relatively) wheels and rubber (245s) or even my owner's manual. At this point he got stupider and told me that the fitment of the muffler and associated parts was not up to OEM standards and therefore must be illegal. Additionally, he told me that dealers frequently add aftermarket parts to cars, and I had likely been the victim of this. Again, I pushed to show him the manual. My wife grabbed my arm in a "don't fsck with the cop" manouver. He again told me to shut up. Went back to his car again, and I realized that Coleman's sells bikes with aftermarket parts on their bikes from time to time, so it must be possible, but everything I had on my car was Subaru, CARB and EPA approved.

He wrote me this GIANT ticket and told me to go home. He asked me which direction I was going, and approved my going up westmoreland to the next exit, getting on 66, and going back to arlington (home). Along my route were two more staties on the shoulder. Perhaps coincidentally, but I doubt it, as he called for backup numerous times (in 1.3 miles!!!).

Relevant details:

my car is stock. The exception to this is a SPT axle back and an SPT intake and heat shield. I don't have any fancy turbo or fmic, nothing between the turbo and the axle-back (like a DP, UP, headers, etc).

The guy who pulled me over was a VA trooper.

He did not cite me for speeding because I *wasn't*.

He was driving a crown vic, not the chrysler cars they have down on 95N into DC.

Officer was incredibly abrasive. Numerous times he told me if I said another word, I was going to jail. I never once raised my voice, I never once disobeyed his orders, and I asked to speak with him every time I had something to say because his cadence was a little weird. Eventually we had a sort of conversation. Most of it was him berating me.

He did acknowledge that I am allowed to pull off the freeway if it's unsafe. He said that in the future I should just pull right over, right then. I don't think that's true. It also upsets me that if my wife had been driving, there would have been no problem because she as magical chromosomes.

Officer's name is written mostly legibly as "TPR. 3,A. Naylor" there's an additional note saying his "code" is 7241. I don' know what that means.

importantly, Don Beyer has given me (well, is giving me) the order for the installation on every part on the car. I have all my maintenance logs including gas (!) and every detail of maintenance has been done at DBS. I still have my window sticker. We're just now at 32,000 miles and the folder we use for organizing the Z and the 'Ru is monstrous.

It might be difficult for other people to slip out of this than for me (I fully expect to win that $30 back!) because we have all the paperwork. From what I can tell at tacos (RIP) is the car is quieter than anyone else's. I also park next to a guy who has a WRX that clearly makes a lot more power than I do, and he has gotten the illegal muffler ticket so many times he restored to the stock pipes. I have now gotten eight pull-overs for this exhaust. Only one ticket, but jeez, it's an awful pain.

Sorry this is so long. I am just so stunned this happened. Of all things I could get a felony for, "fleeing" the police is the last thing I'd ever be arrested and jailed for.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by scheherazade »

Where else do you get a job when you're LD... and the only experience you have is 'schoolyard bully'.

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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by avriette »

scheherazade wrote:Where else do you get a job when you're LD... and the only experience you have is 'schoolyard bully'.

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LD?
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by thermobox »

Sounds like it's on you bro. When ever I've been pulled over (a bazillion times), I do it immediately. Be it in the left shoulder, right shoulder, or any other type of travel lane. You should have pulled over as soon as the lights went on. These guys are under a tremendous amount of pressure and stress. You are no different than any other fart can exhaust civic to them.

The exhaust and the fleeing you can fight and should. You'll prolly win if you've got a good lawyer. The exhaust is OEM equipment so it should be a no brainer. The fleeing is a toss up. If you've got a good lawyer they should be able to get you out of it.
Let this be a learning experience. Next time pull over as soon as you see the lights.
Fingers crossed for you brudda. I hope you get out of it.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by scheherazade »

avriette wrote: LD?
Learning Disabled

I've got about a 60% success rate of encountering cops like the one you describe.
They leave me with the impression that there's a low threshold for what passes for our state's hired muscle.

The rest were good people. I feel sorry for them having to be judged on the impressions left by the other wankers.

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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by avriette »

thermobox wrote:Sounds like it's on you bro. When ever I've been pulled over (a bazillion times), I do it immediately. Be it in the left shoulder, right shoulder, or any other type of travel lane. You should have pulled over as soon as the lights went on. These guys are under a tremendous amount of pressure and stress. You are no different than any other fart can exhaust civic to them.
Actually he told me after stopping me that he didn't think I was fleeing (that and the fact it took five minutes to go 1.3 miles) and subsequently I wasn't fleeing, and not charged. As I said, the shoulder was kinda iffy. He recognized that and just said to me that I'm pretty stupid. Which I normally agree with.
They leave me with the impression that there's a low threshold for what passes for our state's hired muscle.
The thing that sticks out for me is that in 2004, a cop helped me on the shoulder (it was summer) when my Buick broke down. He was very nice, cordial even, and let me use his phone to call Geico for a gallon of gas. :) I guess 12.5% is better than 60%, but I have never been told I was fleeing. I very much believed I was allowed to pull off at the offramp to safer environs. The cop admitted it as well, but emphatically stated it applied to women only. I got my license in California in 1995, and maybe Virginia is different. (thinking back...) I've been pulled over sixteen times between CA and VA. I've been cited three of those times, won in court for each of them or was vindicated (very stern warnings, but I wasn't cited). I think it may be that most people don't bother with court. Those incidents are about 50/50 between the Z and the STI.

I've gone to driver's ed three times, IIRC. I have zero tickets (except this stupid muffler ticket), and Geico generally gives me a reacharound when I'm having a tough day.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by Sabre »

Damn dude, that's quite the ordeal! I honestly believe that the SPT exhaust is louder than some after market exhausts, but the SPT has the advantage that it is a OEM part. I'm sure you'll win that argument/court date as it is fine in the "letter of the law".
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by scheherazade »

avriette wrote:I guess 12.5% is better than 60%, but I have never been told I was fleeing. I very much believed I was allowed to pull off at the offramp to safer environs. The cop admitted it as well, but emphatically stated it applied to women only.

I guess I'm just a Tasmanian-devil attractor (that's about how they sound as they approach he car - spouting illegible noises and spitting all over the place, frantic).
I especially love when they threaten me with charges that they dream up on the spot (reckless, no seatbelt, etc... whatever comes to their mind).

You just stepped in poo.
Yeah pulling over right away would have helped you - but he was clearly looking to hammer you, so you'd have gotten a ticket for something regardless.

I pull over immediately. You can never tell what mood a cops is in.
And I prefer it by the road, with lots of traffic, so he can't go ape shit without someone else seeing it.

I doubt the muffler charge will stick.
The fleeing, it's got that crappy chance to just shit on you.

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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by drwrx »

I'm sorry to hear this, I've had my Bosal/SPT for over 6 years and never had a second look.
I think you just got this guy on a bad night or he's just a bad cop.
It sucks to have to go to court, but I'm pretty certain you will skate on all charges.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by avriette »

drwrx wrote:I'm sorry to hear this, I've had my Bosal/SPT for over 6 years and never had a second look.
I think you just got this guy on a bad night or he's just a bad cop.
It sucks to have to go to court, but I'm pretty certain you will skate on all charges.
I intend to go to court and have him yelled at by a judge. I did absolutely nothing wrong. Pulling over to an offramp instead of on a shoulder in the middle of rainy traffic on a weekend is in fact a prudent decision. I never took my hands off the wheel, and kept them in plain view with the dome light. I think the reason he gave me all that shit is he (this seems sick to me...) was looking forward to arresting me. Somebody musta stole the filling out of his donuts that morning.

Do you agree with J on the SPT exhaust being loud? I don't really know as I've never had it without the catback (which DBS calls an "axle-back", so it's probably even less effective, but gives the car a certain character). Once you add the intake to it, you can hear a lot more of the motor's normal noises and changes the attitude significantly. I know I'm "supposed to" get a DP for it, but I'm really quite pleased with it for now. I don't need more power on it (yet), and I'm still getting used to driving the car again after so much time on the bikes. Wife's been the sole user of the car, for the most part. (and, I want to get a hands-on tune for it if I go down that road, rather than "borrowing" somebody's. I'd rather shoot for less power and more reliability than trying to make a Subaru into some tarmac predator.)

I could swear Chuckles' exhaust was louder than mine, and didn't he have a "hush"?
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by Mr Kleen »

that sucks, but I think the jail part is more about the alleged fleeing than the exhaust. lawyer up...
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by drwrx »

avriette wrote:Do you agree with J on the SPT exhaust being loud?
I've had other exhausts on my car:
1. Bosal dual tip: That was crazy loud. I couldn't take that for more than a month. It drew all kinds off attention.
2. Borla Turbo XL: Not much quieter than the Bosal dual tip. I put the auger muffler in that and it made a huge difference.
3. Bosal single tip / SPT: Perhaps I've gotten used to it, but I think it strikes the perfect balance, not too aggressive / loud but with enough rumble and growl when you really get into it. The Bosal has a db peak that hits early (around 3k RPMs) but doesn't get much louder beyond that. The Borla XL by contrast just got louder and louder until either you ran out of revs out you went deaf from the shear volume level.
avriette wrote:I could swear Chuckles' exhaust was louder than mine, and didn't he have a "hush"?
Yes, Chuck has the Hush. There is a massive database on NASIOC (built by Unabomber) that db levels of different exhausts including downpipes both catted and catless. IIRC the Bosal is louder at idle than the Hush but quieter at 3,500 RPMs and WOT.
avriette wrote:I don't need more power on it (yet), and I'm still getting used to driving the car again after so much time on the bikes. Wife's been the sole user of the car, for the most part. (and, I want to get a hands-on tune for it if I go down that road, rather than "borrowing" somebody's. I'd rather shoot for less power and more reliability than trying to make a Subaru into some tarmac predator.)
Your car is so mildly modded that a Stage 1 XPT map for $77 would be perfect. I've seen Bradon's work (safe AFRs, good timing ramps w/o being overly aggressive) and his dyno plots are impressive and consistent.
His stage 1 is the following:
-Stock IHI VF43 Turbo
-Stock STi Top Mount Intercooler
-Stock Downpipe - Catback or Axleback Exhaust is OK.
-Stock Boost Control Solenoid - No change in lines or T's.
-Stock Airbox with Hi-Flow Panel Filter (K&N, Perrin, etc..)
Your SPT intake is well within the specs as Subaru designed it to work with the stock ECU. It doesn't alter the MAF readings yet still achieves better spool and adds an average of +7-10whp & +10-14ftlbs. I've seen two independent tests and both came away with the same results. Both of them concluded that a CAI would net better numbers but that the SPT was about as good a short RAM as you could get. Both tests were able to coax more out of the car with some tuning as well.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by captainslow »

Oh geez wish I had read this earlier. :(

I just put a SPT exhaust on my sedan. Only after I had purchased it did I start seeing posts on NASIOC about VA police and the incredibly subjective exhaust laws of this state. In my opinion, the MY08-MY10 SPT exhaust is much louder for sedans than for hatchbacks and is a bit louder than I had expected. I wouldn't be surprised if I had a fuzz encounter. I haven't found any examples yet online of people with that particular exhaust (for those years) having any trouble, but for earlier year cars, some were able to successfully argue in VA that it was a factory accessory whereas the judge didn't believe them or even care in other cases.

Off the top of my head, my recollection of the pertinent law stated that if your car sounded louder than a car with factory equipment, that was enough to be violative. However, it didn't say which car with factory equipment - I mean a stock Mustang or Ferrari may be louder than a Subaru with an aftermarket exhaust. How is an officer able to discern if your car is louder than stock models of any other car? How does he even know what the stock Subaru of your MY sounds like? If there was a db limit in the law, then that can be used for comparison, but there isn't one in the VA code. It's maddeningly subjective. This vagueness can either work against you or for you.

Avriette, if you can find a pamphlet from Subaru that has your exhaust and a description of it, definitely bring that with you. I read on some of the posts that there was something from Subaru online pertaining to older model SPT exhausts that said Subaru tested it to be legal in all 50 states. You might want to do a search on NASIOC for that. Be prepared if the judge or officer counters that this is a dealer accessory and not a Subaru accessory. Apparently they have used that argument against SPT owners before and it worked. For the MY09 cars, in the pamphlet for the car itself is a list and description of all the factory option parts and the SPT exhaust is on the list. If you can find anything similar for your car, I think that would be very helpful.

I don't have Lexis/Nexis access at home but if I get a chance at work, I'll take a look for any cases for precedent.

Other than Avriette, have any of you guys had any issues with the VA police and your exhausts? I sincerely purchased mine thinking I wouldn't encounter any legal issues since it was a Subaru factory accessory. But apparently even if it is, one can still get hassled. Bah!
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by Sabre »

Blixa wrote: If there was a db limit in the law, then that can be used for comparison, but there isn't one in the VA code. It's maddeningly subjective. This vagueness can either work against you or for you.
...
I sincerely purchased mine thinking I wouldn't encounter any legal issues since it was a Subaru factory accessory. But apparently even if it is, one can still get hassled. Bah!
You'll never see a db limit in the law here for precisely that reason. If they set a db limit, every Harley, Mustang etc. would have a serious problem. When Harley gives you motorcycles and exhaust tickets can bring revenue, it just doesn't make sense (to them) not to keep enforcing the present law.

Honestly, I've been in VA for 8 years now, running catless or with one cat, and never had a problem. I run the Borla Hush, witch I think it quieter at idle, but louder at higher RPM. As long as you're reasonable, you'll fly under the radar. Unfortunately, it sounds like Alex met the wrong policeman :(
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by captainslow »

Sabre wrote:
Blixa wrote: If there was a db limit in the law, then that can be used for comparison, but there isn't one in the VA code. It's maddeningly subjective. This vagueness can either work against you or for you.
...
I sincerely purchased mine thinking I wouldn't encounter any legal issues since it was a Subaru factory accessory. But apparently even if it is, one can still get hassled. Bah!
You'll never see a db limit in the law here for precisely that reason. If they set a db limit, every Harley, Mustang etc. would have a serious problem. When Harley gives you motorcycles and exhaust tickets can bring revenue, it just doesn't make sense (to them) not to keep enforcing the present law.

Honestly, I've been in VA for 8 years now, running catless or with one cat, and never had a problem. I run the Borla Hush, witch I think it quieter at idle, but louder at higher RPM. As long as you're reasonable, you'll fly under the radar. Unfortunately, it sounds like Alex met the wrong policeman :(
I hope I don't run into the same cop! I'm glad to hear they're not all like that.
I heard somewhere that DC has a db limit. If that's true, it doesn't seem to be enforced. :o

I take back a lot of what I said about the SPT exhaust on my car. It's about 100x louder inside the car than outside. I had some people run it yesterday outside and it was hardly noticeable.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by chicken n waffles »

Blixa wrote:
Other than Avriette, have any of you guys had any issues with the VA police and your exhausts? I sincerely purchased mine thinking I wouldn't encounter any legal issues since it was a Subaru factory accessory. But apparently even if it is, one can still get hassled. Bah!
not personally, but i know several folks in here have had run-ins with the law over exhausts.

i was pulled over on the gw parkway back when i had my 06 sti w/ cobb turboback. i thought for sure i would be cited for it (damn thing was loud at idle and wot). nothing.

when chuck and i worked in the same building, my sti's cobb tbe would set off several car alarms that his wouldn't (louder than the borla hush) but his would set mine off (more of a bass note to the borla vs the cobb).

i was pulled over on nye in my legacy gt w/ magnaflow catback (loud at wot but relatively tame in all other conditions. perfect.) but this time i turned the car off after being pulled over. i've had better luck avoiding tickets this way. cops (well, some cops) see this is a sign that you're under compliance and pose no flight risk. let off with a warning.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by zaxrex »

This has my tale
In my case the officer pulled me over for excessive noise so that he could give me a non-standard exhaust ticket.
If you get a real mushroom, you could even get a ticket for having a quieter exhaust on your car, just because it was not factory.

Counter point comes to when you go to court and show that it is a port installed option (doesn't leave the factory with it), they can still nabb you because it didn't come from the factory that way, even thought the dealer sold it to you like that new.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by Sabre »

Make me wonder... If we gutted the stock STI/WRX muffler, would it still be legal? From the looks of the inside, I doubt their restriction is that bad. Put a 3" pipe into it and we might have something.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by ElZorro »

Sabre wrote:Make me wonder... If we gutted the stock STI/WRX muffler, would it still be legal? From the looks of the inside, I doubt their restriction is that bad. Put a 3" pipe into it and we might have something.
My understanding is the law is against 'modification of stock emissions equipment', that would most likely be considered a modification.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by Sabre »

:jerkit: ;)
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by zaxrex »

And loud as hell. With no baffling there, it will be a certified fart cannon.
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by Phibs »

ElZorro wrote:
Sabre wrote:Make me wonder... If we gutted the stock STI/WRX muffler, would it still be legal? From the looks of the inside, I doubt their restriction is that bad. Put a 3" pipe into it and we might have something.
My understanding is the law is against 'modification of stock emissions equipment', that would most likely be considered a modification.
I know this comes a tad late but I wasn't reading the forums in 2010 ;) I got a ticket for my Cobb being too loud on the 2005 STI. The law is such that anything that comes from the factory is fine, and you CANNOT mod it *AT ALL*. The judge doesn't care how loud it is compared to stock, how big it is compared to stock, if it's not stock yer paying the ticket :(
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by PGT »

the law is sufficiently vague to allow a wide latitude on the part of cops to ticket at will*


*defined as non-American car and non-motorcycle; those are apparently ok to be LOUD AS FUCK
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Re: illegal exhaust = jail.

Post by Mr Kleen »

PGT wrote:*defined as non-American car and non-motorcycle; those are apparently ok to be LOUD AS FUCK
:plusone: :notcool:
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