So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

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avriette
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So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by avriette »

Coming home from < 10 minutes of non-acrobatic driving, I was on GW Parkway heading home, when the car went from "just fine, thanks" to "steam puking through the hood".

Frown. I noticed that the temp gauge did indeed show that it was "hot-ish" at about 2/3 the way up the bar. Yes, it could crank. But it threw literally all the damn blinkies it could at me to say "no, you may not." I don't know how to get the car to respond and give me the failure modes so I could have a better idea of where to look. But, no. The owners manual is very "not open" documentation.

At any rate, I am lucky enough to have pulled over to that first lot before going into DCA southbound. So I'd driven maybe five miles or something when this happened. I still have gas in the tank. The radiator is full. The overflow bottle is not full. There did not seem to be any obvious shorts on account of water going everywhere. I, for lack of having a phone, was unable to call anyone, and literally waited until the engine was room temperature. Tried to turn it on, lotsa blinkies, and no start.

So after fiddling with this electronic beast, I walked around to the cab drivers who were waiting in the lot. They were a pretty unhelpful bunch. For the curious, I believe I disrupted a dead-drop interaction; two pickups came and went. the first was an old beater from the mid 90s and he changed his tire. Then another came along, parked in the exact space, and spent a lot of time looking at me. So I got out and fiddled around under the hood again making no-starty noises and I guess they figured I wasn't mossad or anything. If that wasn't a dead drop, I don't know what it was. It was almost certainly not by circumstance.

Aaaaaanyhow, one of the cabbies decided he could drop me off, because I'm like a mile from DCA. Dude cuts it short and drops me off at the Hyatt - a cab stand! - and I walk the remaining mile. He didn't charge me and wouldn't take money. Go figure.

So I've decided, again, that cages piss me off. Wifey went off with car keys to meet the tow guy on the two fiddy. I seriously couldn't have planned a more lame day.

So anecdote aside, anyone got a guess? Thermostat? Knock sensor? Fuel level sensor (it reads it has 1/4 tank but seems to not want to start due to lack of fuel. I think it's safe to say it's not the air intake, although I do need a new filter. As there was an audible and physical "thump" when it cut out, I am wondering if perhaps the engine decoupled from the clutch disc and is unable to operate anymore. But those things take time to show up: Your clutch is slipping, so you keep it under 3k for a while. Then you get your clutch replaced (or do it yourself if you're a madman), and everyone's happy. Except wifey.

It's kind of ironic that I waited through the whole warranty period on the cart to do anything to it. It's getting the SPT intake and heat shield. It's also getting the downpipe du jour (bosal? who was that?). It's getting and Exedy cutch, Porterfield RS pads (because I'm pretty familiar with them; went through three or four sets in the Z). And after all that goodness changes, I guess I need a tune. That will be the intake, downpipe, and exhaust.

Sigh.
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by Sabre »

Oh, that SUCKS! Odd that the coolant is fine, but you saw white smoking coming from under the hood. Was there any of said white smoking coming out of the exhaust? If so, you might be right on the blown head gasket.

You'll need a code reader to pull the code to see exactly what is wrong. After that, reference this post for said code. I take it that the warranty is up from your post?

Where did you get it towed to?

Again, sorry mang :(
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

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Sabre wrote:Oh, that SUCKS! Odd that the coolant is fine, but you saw white smoking coming from under the hood. Was there any of said white smoking coming out of the exhaust? If so, you might be right on the blown head gasket.
honestly there wasn't much smoke. it smoked for maybe a minute, and in that minute i got my face up in the dirty parts to smell whether i was burning oil or coolant + oil, etc. I didn't have the chance to check the tailpipe. But what's got me intrigued by it is that it happened so suddenly. I mean, it just popped on me. Totally not expecting it.
I take it that the warranty is up from your post?

Where did you get it towed to?
Towed to DB Subaru. Apparently the powertrain warranty (which would cover a headgasket, busted diff, broken flywheel, things like that) is 60k. Or something like that. Geico paid for the tow, and they'll have it in the morning and look it over. Like I said, I had scheduled it to get brakes fluids tires clutch downpipe and intake. Now I'll just have to add "magical engine thunky thingy" to it.
Again, sorry mang :(
Probably not the right place for it, but it doesn't bother me at all. I like the car. But I've seen a lot of other cars I'd like, and since we have so much equity in the car, it's a big old wad of cash on another ride. Like a CTS-V or finally getting a reasonably untainted C5. Oodles of power in that motor. Oh, and no more car note. That = win.
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by schvin »

ugh, that is no fun. g'luck with the dealer... will be curious to hear what it was.
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by zaxrex »

I hope it is nothing more than just removing battery cables and tapping the brakes to get you going again.
Would be nice to know the cause though, eh?
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by avriette »

zaxrex wrote:I hope it is nothing more than just removing battery cables and tapping the brakes to get you going again.
Would be nice to know the cause though, eh?
The engine is on a stand at DBS. Zero compression on all cylinders. It kinda smells like HG to me, but I think even a busted HG would give you some compression. Right?

same bat-time, same bat-channel...

(I love having a comfy fail whale when my car's being worked on...)
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by Sabre »

avriette wrote:Zero compression on all cylinders. It kinda smells like HG to me, but I think even a busted HG would give you some compression. Right?
:shock: Damn! Ya, I'd say head gasket... there should be some compression in the thing though! The only thing that I can think of is the head got lifted from coolant or something getting into the chamber.
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by zaxrex »

Uckf me! Zero's across the board?
With that and the fact that you could't, kinda sounds like a cam problem to me. But since this is DOHC on each side, the springs would default to closing the valves leaving you with some compression. Well, that and the white smoke and temp gauge would say it is not cam.

OK, that's it. No more broke engines, nobody is allowed to have any more.
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by avriette »

zaxrex wrote: OK, that's it. No more broke engines, nobody is allowed to have any more.
Well, yeah. Good news is DBS (Mike Kentes, folks; he is a good guy.) looked at it and said to us, and I do quote here, "Yep, engine's fucked." They have done every oil change, every detail, every maintenance (on time…), every everything on the car, and they know that we do occasionally drive it hard, but for the most part, it's not racing. And this failure, in this method, is kind of spectacular. I am sure it's multi-factor. I literally went from "okay" to "splode" in about half a mile at 45mph.

I imagine when he says to me that there is zero, like a mathematical zero, he really means to say "no discernible or useful compression." I'm going to ask him tomorrow if he in fact meant zero. At the moment, we're at the 30,000 mile service, which includes a number of things that are going to get replaced anyways. So that's supposed to be $800 but will be less – it's all wearables like the cabin air filter, pcv valve and such.

So I'm throwing into the bin to go back in the car:
Exedy clutch
Flywheel (vendor unknown, suggestions appreciated) - I don't want a lighter one
Front and rear pads, porterfield R4S
Stainless brake and clutch lines
SPT intake (yes, I know a downpipe is here appreciated, but I have lost the resolve to do that particular mod, despite the fact it's like free money)
Some fancypants wipers I haven't figured out yet
24mm whiteline swaybar (I may get urethane bushings put into the ass end of the car, too)

They're going to have the car at least a month. Our out of pocket, including the above, is going to be below $1500. And, truth told, the clutch needed to be replaced, the brakes did, and we were getting ready to take it in for the 30k checkup and wearables. It was just kind of fortuitous that everything broke at once.

We will either have a new engine or they will rebuild. I have asked to see the hone on the cylinder walls. I don't want it going back together with piston slap/scuff marks, and if it did what I think it did, we probably threw a rod too. So I'd be demanding basically a new engine at that point (vs going 030 over, I guess?).

Anyways, Wifey told me today one of the reasons she wants to keep the car (it has become a point of discussion, of late) primarily because we have just such good service with DBS. Maybe we paid extra money going to the dealer for every little thing, but their response has been to trust us because hey, they've done all the work. The one-neck-to-choke principle. I'd really love a whore red RX8 R3. It's so hot. But, she's right. I'm almost at the point where I can be doing long distance walking so I may be within a month of riding a motorcycle. And that's where the speed is, anyways. When she's ready, she'll ask for a faster car.




edit: i just got back from that stupid vampire movie and accordingly this post is incoherent. i feel like i'm putting the "14" in "145".
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by Mr Kleen »

a blown motor AND you had to sit through New Moon!?!? daaaaamn :shock:
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by Sabre »

That sucks about the motor, but I'm very happy to hear that they'll be covering it!
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by avriette »

Sabre wrote:That sucks about the motor, but I'm very happy to hear that they'll be covering it!
I'd just like to point out for people who have had a problem with Don Beyer and/or other dealers (Patterson, I'm lookin at you) is that we bought the car from DBS new, ordered it directly as we wanted from Japan (waiting two and a half months) and it was delivered to us with two miles on the clock. Subsequently we've had all the work done by the dealer, including routine maintenance (laziness, back problems, and wifey not knowing how to do it herself).

If the motor blew up for any reason, it would almost certainly involve them, as they see it every 3000 miles. Also, we've made friends with the service manager there, who happens to like fast cars, and I've been pretty open with him about it. I've told him I've had the car topped out a couple of times, and he is confident in the brand, the car, that specific car, and he knows what I do to it and what wifey does to it. So, again, I'd have to do something really stupendous to have them say not a chance, we're not covering that.

Wifey, it turns out, is also friends with the Beyer family because they all own Macs and come to her for help (I didn't really know this until recently).

We might be getting special treatment, but I have a hard time seeing the service manager as anything but honest and knowledgeable.
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by Mr Kleen »

I bought my 2004 WRX at Don Beyer and have had all major service done there. I hope that FHI doesn't screw up the coupe so I can buy my next car there as well. :mrgreen:
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by avriette »

Anatomy of an accident. Looks like the water pump seized, and because the pump seized, that timing belt (remind me again why we don't use a fucking chain??) got shredded on the water pump pulley. This led to valve-piston clearance problems and, yes, zero compression. They're replacing the pistons and valves that are damaged, but apparently SOA is very, very careful with STI parts because they're expensive. If DBS replaces an STI piston and/or valve, they have to send the replaced parts back to SOA and if they didn't need to be replaced, SOA will charge the dealer. Or so I'm told. I have no reason to believe not, however.

I am not getting the downpipe because I'd need an AP, a tune, etc. I'm getting the SPT intake (which is covered under wty) which Subaru says with the catback makes 47 hp (fat chance). But, my guess is I could take it somewhere and have it tune for a skosh more boost and easily make that number. But right now I don't want to spend the money.

I'm getting whiteline sways put on the car and urethane bushings. I am also going with the EBC pads. I've used the porterfields a lot in the past, and it didn't bother me that they didn't perform well when cold, but since this is primarily wifey's car (with me on a bike), I don't feel that's a risk I can take. So I want brakes that warm up to operating temperature faster, resist fade better, and of course they're getting stainless lines.

So, it's kind of terrible news, but, you know, it could be worse. It could be not covered. Much as I want an RX8-R3, I really have to admit Wifey is right -- DBS has treated us so well, I just can't imagine having another shop and service manager take care of my car.

Any input?
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by snaab »

Just read through all your posts. I feel your pain (although you are handling it level-headedly). If you switch to a "whore red" RX8, you'll still be allowed to play in all the reindeer games :mrgreen:
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by Sabre »

avriette wrote:Anatomy of an accident. Looks like the water pump seized, and because the pump seized, that timing belt (remind me again why we don't use a fucking chain??) got shredded on the water pump pulley. This led to valve-piston clearance problems and, yes, zero compression. They're replacing the pistons and valves that are damaged, but apparently SOA is very, very careful with STI parts because they're expensive. If DBS replaces an STI piston and/or valve, they have to send the replaced parts back to SOA and if they didn't need to be replaced, SOA will charge the dealer. Or so I'm told. I have no reason to believe not, however.
I can believe that about SOA... especially now'a'days since car companies need to save as much as possible.

Chain vs. Belt argument, article 2
avriette wrote: Subaru says with the catback makes 47 hp (fat chance). But, my guess is I could take it somewhere and have it tune for a skosh more boost and easily make that number. But right now I don't want to spend the money.
Gotta call BS on this one... With just a catback and a tune, you're looking at most... 20WHP, and that's on the high side. Now the DP will get you 50WHP easy with those including a tune. Why not look at XPT's open source maps? They are cheap ($30-75) and have been proven over and over to be safe and reliable.

Glad to hear they are covering it. Looking forward to seeing it out again!
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by avriette »

just wanted to wrap this up. i'm picking the car up on tues. there actually is an interesting twist on this. they won't cover the clutch (duh), and since our clutch was already _going_ before the "incident", the flywheel was egregiously scorched. this, i suspect was also part of the sudden spike to 290F in the rad/thermostat. nonetheless, they are not covering the FW either.

cylinder 3 has busted exhaust valves, and a holed piston because of, you know, the valves and pistons not agreeing whose turn it is. so, new piston there, new valves. looks like the rest of the cylinders are fine.

the clutch and flywheel turned out to be a lot more than i thought because i'm not only paying for the parts, but the shipping and labor for same. i've probably mentioned it a couple times, but we're using a stage 2 exedy clutch and flywheel. i couldn't find a same-weight flywheel, anywhere, and the SOA parts are 3x$ the aftermarket parts. also, SOA is apparently a bunch of idiots (no source for this quote, but it is a source and a quote). the point here is that FHI builds great cars, and SOA can't manage the repair of a hang nail. SOA also really doesn't like wty repairs involved with aftermarket parts (even their own parts!) but at this point the thing they don't like is the fw & clutch. i figured, well, the car's on a lift and the engine's on a cart, in half, why would they charge me labor to r&r the clutch and fw since all that stuff is part of putting it back together anyways? or maybe that's different. i haven't done a clutch since 96, and that was on 10-15 year old cars. right around the (happy happy joy joy) dawn of obd2.

so with all this extra labor and the $1k cost of the clutch and fw (incidentally, the sti parts are 2x as much as the rex parts, although most of the difference is in fit), we had to cut some short. still have the ss lines (nod to julian), and a new clutch & fw. i also acquired a kind of "this repair was terrible for both DBS and me, so cover me here" agreement with wifey re: the bushings, sways, and such, to be done in jan. the poor Z is under three feet+ of snow right now, the sti is still in the garage (only a couple more days), and it occurs to me that the car is on nearly-new RE-01R's and i just added a much more aggressive clutch to the mix. and a lighter fw. it's going to be a pain in the ass in the rain and snow, and wifey doesn't know as much as she needs to about driving in this sort of weather. suck.

mmm. rx8. yiff. yiff.
aa
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by zaxrex »

Reminds me of my clutch shudder issue. SOA said they would replace the clutch and flywheel. I brought in an AUS STi clutch and flywheels and they wouold not do the work because they would only use "Subaru parts".

Seems like not much has changed.
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Re: So I finally blew that gasket I'd been talking about.

Post by avriette »

Got the car back. Apparently after they had everything out they noticed a common design failure in the 06 cars. There's a metallurgical issue with the seams on the water pump. I think what happened is it's mostly cast piece but there are weld seams (they were pointed out to me) along which vibration can actually sever (and sometimes seize) the water pump impeller. It only affects 06's and 07's, less so in the latter year. But apparently, it's a recognized defect. So that's the end of that story.

The exedy clutch is quite a bit grabbier than the OEM unit, but we were both used to it pretty quick. It's whatever they were referring to as their "stage 2" clutch; the part number is the same for the rex and the sti.

The spt air filter, heat shield, and short pipe are so loud it's downright silly. You hear this giant whooshing noise come out of the passenger-side headlamp that sounds like a mitsubishi fuso or something. Between that and the lighter flywheel (meh, I think 2lbs lighter at 13.3 oz), the car is just generally jumpier all around. The clutch grabs early and for keeps, the air starts whooshing and squealing right around 2700rpm and instantly pulls to 4000rpm. We haven't really wound the car out because of the weather and our brakes.

I'll talk about the brakes when we get them done. Figured I'd pass it on though, the seam thing.
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