Brakes, intake, clutch.

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avriette
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Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:32 pm

If I am in the wrong forum, I apologize; there are three questions. For brevity, I put them in one place, but if you want to move it, that's fine by me and would be appreciated.

First, clutch: I noticed a "flat spot" between around 4750 and 5750 rpm a while ago and remember that was an air filter the first time around. Since I'm spending more time in the car (and wifey more time on the bike) lately because it's more comfortable and I'm going through physical therapy right now, the little differences are starting to stick out. At any rate, I noticed that it wasn't really up there at 4750 to 5750, it basically was a "flat spot" where it started hesitating around 3750, and then the tacho shoots up to 5750 real quick. The car pulls quickly, but the tach moves too fast for me to think it's doing its job. While I hoped we'd get more than 31,000 miles out of the clutch, I think the clutch is starting to slip under peak torque. As replacements I have considered Exedy (recommendation from a friend a while ago) and my old favorite Centerforce, but I don't know if CF offers a clutch for the car, or if it's any good (I was a fan of Brembo years ago, and their current line is shameful when compared to Endless products). Any advice here? I want a harder holding, hopefully longer lasting clutch that won't cause halfshafts to tear.

Second, brakes. I damn near hit somebody on the freeway the other day because, despite my absolute best efforts at threshold braking, they were just gone. I'd been braking in some pretty cantankerous traffic previously, and noticed that they were more prone to soak and fade. Mike at DBS said that the pads needed to be replaced when he saw it at 28k, but that the rotors looked fine and he didn't think they needed to be turned, and that their thickness was more than sufficient. I don't really like "squeaky glazed brake noise", but will tolerate it for brakes that work like the deathstar's got ahold of us, but in general, I think an aggressive street profile brake should be fine, as when I finish PT, I'll be back on the bike, and wifey doesn't know how to threshold brake (just jam it to the floor and hope ABS saves you).

Third, the filter. It's time to change the air filter again. I'm just going to get the SPT intake, filter, and heat shield. I am thinking that with the intake and exhaust, that we'll probably need to get a tune. I am personally kind of against modifying the car, because people don't want "excessively modified" used vehicles, but I'm thinking if the car is going to go get an AP or tactrix or whatever tune-majick we use these days, it seems kind of criminal not to drop the hunnerd or so bucks on the DP. Definitely, though, with the DP, SPT intake/shield, and the SPT catback, we should (just out of responsibility) get a tune.

The car's on those fancypants RE-01R's, which are just aaaaaaaaamazing tires. So I think increasing the brakes and power substantially should be sufficiently handled by the tires. It's not like she's out there racing Le Mans on the way home from work. We've learned a lot from bikes, in that regard -- if you want to go fast, do it with something that weighs less than 600lbs.

All advice much appreciated. And yeah, I've been gone a long time. I've been insanely busy. I am in the middle of bootstrapping my second startup, and there is so, so much work to be done.

Thanks a lot in advance, especially after my absence.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by zaxrex » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:53 pm

Hi Alex, sorry to hear that you have PT to go through. Hope it isn't too bad.

As far as clutch, if the tach swings up without associated 'butt' response, clutch would be suspect. I have no advice for STi clutch replacements, as I upgraded my WRX one to an AUSDM STi one and love it. If you are just going to do a tune after your intake and exhaust, a stock replacement should be fine, but if you want to spend a couple extra handfulls of cash, Exedy should be fine for street driving.

Speaking of street driving, how is it that you are maxing out your pads and approaching lockup on street driving? It takes me 500 lbs on my trailer going down long mountain grades on an interstate to even begin to feel brake fade, much less degradation in actual brake performance. Only time I have "lost brakes" was on the track after I upgraded the front lines to steel tubes, but left the stock rubber ones to balloon at the end of a straight. For street driving, I would be hard pressed to say that stock rotors and upgraded pads would not be capable.

As for modifying your intake, it is super easy to return back to stock for potential buyers. If that were the case, make sure you bring the ECU back to stock. Apart from that, if you modify the intake diameter a tune is necessary, other than that, it is good practice to get the most benefit out of your ~$200 upgrade.

That's all I got. Not much and only from my limited but practical experience.

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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by complacent » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:37 am

Although I can't personally comment on aftermarket clutches, I'm sure there are those here who can. Basically at stock (or near stock) power levels I wouldn't recommend a higher capacity clutch. In order to get a great mix of pedal feel/effort and strength you're easily talking two or three times the cost of the OEM unit. Severe overkill IMHO. And from there springs the rabbit hole effect: "well the clutch was X, they're already taking it apart, better get the flywheel too." Bad juju that you don't want on a daily driver with an OEM ECU.

For brakes, I've had really good experiences with the Hawk HPS series as well as Porterfield R4S series. Both have better initial bite vs OEM, with similarly low temperature requirements needed for street use. Also, keep the rotors OEM unless you're really looking to shoot the lock off the ol' wallet. You will easily double the cost and reduce the lifespan. Shops like Autozone are now starting to stock the STi OEM rotors and prices have absolutely tumbled accordingly. Much, much different than a few years ago when the OEM could only be bought from the dealer and aftermarket (slotted, drilled, etc) were almost a bargain comparatively speaking. If you're worried about fade, throw stainless lines into the mix and you're more than ready to take a sick amount of abuse from the stop pedal.

For the TBE, intake and ECU - that's a no-brainer. It's almost a sin to keep the boxer corked up as it sits stock. Put even a shorty downpipe along with an intake and an OpenECU tune and you're right at the limits of the stock fuel system (injectors specifically). Nowadays you can find a tactrix cable, an open source map, a downpipe and an intake for under $500. Matter of fact, I bet it could be done for under $350 if you're sharp with the classified sections of NASIOC and IWSTI. All of which are very easy to return to stock come parting time. Good luck with your search and decision.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by Mr Kleen » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:26 am

stainless brake lines are an easy install (just a little messy) and also fairly cheap. after installing them on my past 2 cars I think they'll be on EVERY auto I own from now on. even if it's a family truckster. :mrgreen: I've had good luck with EBC Green and Hawk HPS pads for street use.

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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by Sabre » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:05 pm

Hey Alex, LTNS! Sorry to hear about the PT, but it sounds like everything else is coming together for ya!

As far as clutches are concerned, take a look at the ClutchMasters clutches. They are very linear, quiet, and add additional grip. I managed to get 72k out of my stock clutch... don't ask me to repeat that though! If you're going to go for a custom tune, a lighter fly wheel might be worth consideration if your fly wheel is shot. You do need to tune for it though (the stock tune will drop RPM's too fast and give a CEL).

I've had great experiences with Porterfield R4S, just like Colin. I use them on the street mostly, but they do get the occasional track day too where they hold up very well. I highly recommend that you switch to SS lines and Blue fluid when you do this. It changes the brakes into wonder stoppers :)

The Intake/TBE, as you said, will definitely need a tune after install. If you don't want to get a custom OpenSource tune, I'd highly recommend XPT Maps. Basically, you buy the map that most closely resembles your modifications. They have been proven time and time again to be very good and safe.

Just looking some stuff up:
Ebay nocat-DP - $100 shipped or cheaper
Ebay catted-DP - $450 shipped
Ebay SPT Intake - $150 shipped (You can go cheaper with non-SPT)
XPT Tune - $130
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by drwrx » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:23 pm

FINALLY!!!
OK I'm done being a jerk.

If you decide to get an XPT Map follow what he recommends. But everything your planning fits within his standards.
You are right in-line with what I recommend for a good stage 2 STI
1. SPT or K&N short-RAM intake (they both make good power w/o throwing off the MAF)
2. Shorty Down-pipe (Stromung $195, Oakos $143, Bosal $215) keep you stock mid-cat.
3. Cat-back (you have an SPT, that's perfect)
4. Headers (ebay $90, no need for a tune and you get 12-14 whp & 14-18 lb-ft. with lower EGTs, what's not to love!)

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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:44 pm

drwrx wrote: 1. SPT or K&N short-RAM intake (they both make good power w/o throwing off the MAF)
Just the SPT. That's all Sandy wants.
2. Shorty Down-pipe (Stromung $195, Oakos $143, Bosal $215) keep you stock mid-cat.
I might throw the Oakos in there provided it doesn't toss a CEL, vibrate, or do anything else untoward. Catted doesn't matter to me, but NVH matters with Wifey.
3. Cat-back (you have an SPT, that's perfect)
Ayup.
4. Headers (ebay $90, no need for a tune and you get 12-14 whp & 14-18 lb-ft. with lower EGTs, what's not to love!)
No. Do not want.

I have Porterfield R4S on the Z, I loved them when I was using them, so I'll get a set of them for the Subaru, and if I can afford it the stainless lines. Is there a stainless clutch line as well? I assume it's hydraulic.
zaxrex wrote: Speaking of street driving, how is it that you are maxing out your pads and approaching lockup on street driving?
Because I'm a damn fool, wasn't that the consensus already? What's the cager equivalent of "squid"?
complacent wrote: "well the clutch was X, they're already taking it apart, better get the flywheel too." Bad juju that you don't want on a daily driver with an OEM ECU.
Can you re-phrase that for somebody as thickheaded as me? "No" is an okay answer, but I don't understand what you're getting at. I want a higher capacity clutch so I don't have to replace it in 30,500 miles. The clutch in my Dad's 5-valve Audi 90 lasted 91,000 miles, whereas the clutch in the Z lasted about a year (every summer, a new one; every winter a new set of tires). Since Sandy is the primary driver, and she rides bikes (including the orange litre of death), she doesn't mind a finicky or touchy clutch, but she does mind replacing parts often. The only thing that would concern me is that the over-capacity clutch might hurt the diffs. But those diffs seem to be made out of the same kind of stuff they made the Peenemünde bunkers out of.

And finally, I was thinking, with an intake and exhaust, new clutch, the engine finally completely broken in and out of warranty, that it would be a good idea to take it to a shop, have it put on a dyno, and just tuned properly. I figured it would take an hour or two and I'm not concerned about spending the money, especially if it makes the car safer (that is, the sum of its parts don't blow up the engine or anything), and any reduction in NVH would be nice for Wifeypoo.

For me, I'll be on a bike.

Thanks for being so helpful after my absence. If any of you don't follow my other outlets online, I've broken four of my five lumbar vertebrae and was bedridden for four months. I'm doing great in PT now, hoping to be able to get back to work in Feb/March, but with the startup, I'm also hoping to have clients to pay the staff by then, too. We'll see.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by Sabre » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:48 pm

avriette wrote:Because I'm a damn fool, wasn't that the consensus already? What's the cager equivalent of "squid"?
Ricer ;)
avriette wrote:The only thing that would concern me is that the over-capacity clutch might hurt the diffs. But those diffs seem to be made out of the same kind of stuff they made the Peenemünde bunkers out of.
Don't worry about the diffs, trust me. The whole tranny is good to about 600AWHP. At that point, you're going to break an axle (they are made to break to protect the tranny) before you harm the tranny.

avriette wrote:I've broken four of my five lumbar vertebrae and was bedridden for four months. I'm doing great in PT now
:dropgob: Ouch!
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by sirwilliam » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:04 pm

I am running HPS pads, stainless lines, and DBA 4000 rotors with my brembos. They work great. I usually don't max them enough...sometimes I scare myself and worry about people behind me hitting me they work so well. I ran some EBC reds on my last Foz that worked really well but ate up stock rotors so I had to upgrade to racing brake rotors...used those with stainless lines and it worked great.

Not sure about the STI clutch but I went with exedy stage 1 on my last foz due to losing grip in 5th on the highway. It gave 40% more torque handling but wasn't so much as to put a strain on the tranny (it would still act as a fuse and let go before the tranny would). I plan on getting another for my new Foz if the stock clutch goes (knock on wood it doesn't). I know the STi 6spd can handle a lot more abuse than my old foz so probably Julian or someone with an STI can give you some better insight.

I would agree about getting an aftermarket downpipe if you are getting a retune...seems like just a waste if you only upgrade the intake...there is so much more power to have!
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:18 am

sirwilliam wrote:I am running HPS pads, stainless lines, and DBA 4000 rotors with my brembos. They work great. I usually don't max them enough...sometimes I scare myself and worry about people behind me hitting me they work so well. I ran some EBC reds on my last Foz that worked really well but ate up stock rotors so I had to upgrade to racing brake rotors...used those with stainless lines and it worked great.
My biggest problem with the Z when I had brembo rotors and porterfield pads was they were worthless when they were cold. That's bad for Miss Wifey in commuter traffic.
Not sure about the STI clutch but I went with exedy stage 1 on my last foz due to losing grip in 5th on the highway. It gave 40% more torque handling but wasn't so much as to put a strain on the tranny (it would still act as a fuse and let go before the tranny would). I plan on getting another for my new Foz if the stock clutch goes (knock on wood it doesn't). I know the STi 6spd can handle a lot more abuse than my old foz so probably Julian or someone with an STI can give you some better insight.
I'm just looking for something that will hold better and last longer. I do believe that combination is possible, but if somebody would care to chime in, I could be disabused of it.
I would agree about getting an aftermarket downpipe if you are getting a retune...seems like just a waste if you only upgrade the intake...there is so much more power to have!
Mostly I'd do it just because I'm sick of hearing about it.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:23 am

Sabre wrote:
avriette wrote:I've broken four of my five lumbar vertebrae and was bedridden for four months. I'm doing great in PT now
:dropgob: Ouch!
After the accident my pulse was 70, my bp was 130/70, and the EMT's said I was fine but that I'd be sore in the morning. I was walking around that night. I went to my doctor the next day and she ordered films, which showed one vertebrae broken. Then we got an MRI, showing four. The most pain, to be honest, has come from the nearly non-stop muscle spasms in my latissimus (on both sides). Local injections of Toradol fix that, and the physical therapy--I've never had PT that actually worked--has been fantastic.

For the curious, I'm going to Northern Virginia Spine & Pain in Shirlington for the Toradol injections, and the physical therapy is at Virginia Hospital Center. I'm happy to refer anyone, and I plan to write an editorial after the whole thing is sorted out. These people have been absolutely amazing.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by ElZorro » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:45 am

avriette wrote:I'm happy to refer anyone, and I plan to write an editorial after the whole thing is sorted out. These people have been absolutely amazing.
Good, you deserve a bit of good luck somewhere. :)
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:06 am

Is there a reason the Hawk pads are 1/3 the cost of the Porterfields? I mean I am looking at froogle and seeing $180 for a front set (that is, not all four corners) of pads. Rotors used to cost that much.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:24 am

And froogle has an HKS downpipe that is supposed to "eliminate both cats" -- apart from smelling awful, will that toss a CEL and get Wifey a ticket? I don't know where the cats are in the exhaust if there are plural cats. The Bosal pipe seemed like a great deal at meh, $100, but I don't want her having a no-cat car. Halp?
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:34 am

And I hate to be a pest, but are the clutches going to come with the throw-out bearing and pilot bushing too, or do I have to order those from Subaru? Shopping online is kind of a hassle.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by sirwilliam » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:45 am

avriette wrote:And froogle has an HKS downpipe that is supposed to "eliminate both cats" -- apart from smelling awful, will that toss a CEL and get Wifey a ticket? I don't know where the cats are in the exhaust if there are plural cats. The Bosal pipe seemed like a great deal at meh, $100, but I don't want her having a no-cat car. Halp?
The tune will eliminate the CEL but I would stick with at least one cat (cuts down on noise and smell).
avriette wrote:And I hate to be a pest, but are the clutches going to come with the throw-out bearing and pilot bushing too, or do I have to order those from Subaru? Shopping online is kind of a hassle.
It should come with both. I would check w/ IAG. They have great prices on parts and installs. Shop is top notch.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:51 am

anyone have a part number or something like that for bleed screws for the brakes? i'm having a hard time finding them online. i have a 2006, remember.
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Re: Brakes, intake, clutch.

Post by avriette » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:39 pm

zaxrex wrote:Hi Alex, sorry to hear that you have PT to go through. Hope it isn't too bad.
nothing a new body won't fix.
Speaking of street driving, how is it that you are maxing out your pads and approaching lockup on street driving? It takes me 500 lbs on my trailer going down long mountain grades on an interstate to even begin to feel brake fade, much less degradation in actual brake performance.
ah. lemme 'splain. our pads are at 4mm. :( i've told wifey categorically there is no driving of the car until we fix those brakes.
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