All you ever wanted to know about tires and wheels

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Sabre
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All you ever wanted to know about tires and wheels

Post by Sabre »

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html

Thanks to SirWiliam for the link :)
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sirwilliam
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Re: All you ever wanted to know about tires and wheels

Post by sirwilliam »

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Re: All you ever wanted to know about tires and wheels

Post by avriette »

Let me just add to this the Avriette wisdom that lets me drive summer tires in the winter:

If the car (or bike) is sliding around, you're driving too fast. It's like overspeeding your headlamps. If you find yourself in an unsafe condition, remove the elements that made it unsafe. This is usually throttle, but sometimes steering angle, and sometimes braking pressure or bias (f/r). You can drive on slicks in the rain and snow if you are careful (and you see this in F1 and MGP). Why would you do this? Well, because then you don't have to own two sets of wheels and tires, do all the changing thereof, and have a place to store them.

All-season (or even foul-weather) tires will not save you from your believing they will save you.

Remember, Alex lives in a 698 ft^2 apt with no private garage.
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sirwilliam
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Re: All you ever wanted to know about tires and wheels

Post by sirwilliam »

avriette wrote:Let me just add to this the Avriette wisdom that lets me drive summer tires in the winter:

If the car (or bike) is sliding around, you're driving too fast. It's like overspeeding your headlamps. If you find yourself in an unsafe condition, remove the elements that made it unsafe. This is usually throttle, but sometimes steering angle, and sometimes braking pressure or bias (f/r). You can drive on slicks in the rain and snow if you are careful (and you see this in F1 and MGP). Why would you do this? Well, because then you don't have to own two sets of wheels and tires, do all the changing thereof, and have a place to store them.

All-season (or even foul-weather) tires will not save you from your believing they will save you.

Remember, Alex lives in a 698 ft^2 apt with no private garage.
This is very good stuff but I do not believe that just because you can do something (i.e. summer tires in winter), means you should do it. Winter tires are better suited for the winter/cold and are proven so in the compound and design. They will not give you hidden powers but will add to your safety. And all-season are better suited to winter/cold conditions vs. summer.
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Re: All you ever wanted to know about tires and wheels

Post by avriette »

sirwilliam wrote: This is very good stuff but I do not believe that just because you can do something (i.e. summer tires in winter), means you should do it. Winter tires are better suited for the winter/cold and are proven so in the compound and design. They will not give you hidden powers but will add to your safety. And all-season are better suited to winter/cold conditions vs. summer.
You could drive on steel tires – hell, take the tires off and drive around on steel rims from a camry or something – all year round. The important thing is to know where the limits of those tires are. You don't have to have summer tires for summer, and you don't have to have all-season/winter tires for winter. When I first moved out here, people told me that the Z (FR, ~2300lbs, 300hp) would absolutely need all-season tires. I bought what were the nicest all-season tires at the time, Dunlop SP9000's, and they did absolutely nothing for that first winter in Potomac. When it rained, they had no better traction than the BFG ZR's I'd replaced, and when it snowed (we got two 14" snows in Potomac that year), they were equally useless. When summer came around, the tires were pathetic and I sorely missed my BFG's.

Drive with appropriate respect for the limits of your vehicle under the conditions. No amount of studded blizzaks or 345/35ZR19 slick is going to help you if you out-drive your contact envelope. Nothing is going to prevent you from hydroplaning over that 2" of standing water under Memorial Bridge on 110 that you didn't see until it was too late. Learn to adapt to foul conditions before you begin adapting your vehicle to them. The former is far more valuable than the latter. Take the great drivers for example. Ever seen Tommi Makinen race in the snow on slicks? Valentino Rossi on two wheels – or one! or leaned over! – in the rain on slicks?. Do you think those people are somehow magically controlling their vehicles with "the wrong" tires? For that matter, have you ever seen what "rain tires" look like in F1 or MGP vs your consumer-grade rain tires?

edit: I'll shut up. I feel like I'm three drinks into this argument at Hard Times already.
Last edited by avriette on Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All you ever wanted to know about tires and wheels

Post by sirwilliam »

avriette wrote:
sirwilliam wrote: This is very good stuff but I do not believe that just because you can do something (i.e. summer tires in winter), means you should do it. Winter tires are better suited for the winter/cold and are proven so in the compound and design. They will not give you hidden powers but will add to your safety. And all-season are better suited to winter/cold conditions vs. summer.
You could drive on steel tires – hell, take the tires off and drive around on steel rims from a camry or something – all year round. The important thing is to know where the limits of those tires are. You don't have to have summer tires for summer, and you don't have to have all-season/winter tires for winter. When I first moved out here, people told me that the Z (FR, ~2300lbs, 300hp) would absolutely need all-season tires. I bought what were the nicest all-season tires at the time, Dunlop SP9000's, and they did absolutely nothing for that first winter in Potomac. When it rained, they had no better traction than the BFG ZR's I'd replaced, and when it snowed (we got two 14" snows in Potomac that year), they were equally useless. When summer came around, the tires were pathetic and I sorely missed my BFG's.

Drive with appropriate respect for the limits of your vehicle under the conditions. No amount of studded blizzaks or 345/35ZR19 slick is going to help you if you out-drive your contact envelope. Nothing is going to prevent you from hydroplaning over that 2" of standing water under Memorial Bridge on 110 that you didn't see until it was too late. Learn to adapt to foul conditions before you begin adapting your vehicle to them. The former is far more valuable than the latter. Take the great drivers for example. Ever seen Tommi Makinen race in the snow on slicks? Valentino Rossi on two wheels – or one! or leaned over! – in the rain on slicks?. Do you think those people are somehow magically controlling their vehicles with "the wrong" tires? For that matter, have you ever seen what "rain tires" look like in F1 or MGP vs your consumer-grade rain tires?

I'll shut up. I feel like I'm three drinks into this argument at Hard Times already.
In the snow/winter AWD > FWD > RWD. It depends on the configuration as well as the tires but I think you missed the point of my reply. I was agreeing w/ you except for using summer tires in the winter. People in general (especially in this DC/MD/VA area w/ our wonderful cornucopia of awesomely skilled drivers), should do what they can to not decrease the safety in inclement weather, if not increase safety.
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"Nothing shuts my pie-hole but pie." -Shawn Spencer
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Re: All you ever wanted to know about tires and wheels

Post by drwrx »

Drive with appropriate respect for the limits of your vehicle under the conditions. No amount of studded blizzaks or 345/35ZR19 slick is going to help you if you out-drive your contact envelope. Nothing is going to prevent you from hydroplaning over that 2" of standing water under Memorial Bridge on 110 that you didn't see until it was too late.
I agree that driver skill and driving within your envelope are major issues, but having the right tool for the job increases that envelope significantly. The greatest factors in adhesion in any conditions (winter especially) are tread compound and tread design. Simply put, a slick "summer only" tire like an RE070 or Azenis Rt615 with no sipes or lateral edges and a compound that has limited grip at or near freezing temps has no hope of biting into snow or ice. They won't likely take a 90 degree turn at 10 mph let alone 25 mph. They also will have virtually no braking ability at all. Even the best all season tires will require nearly twice the stopping distance of dedicated ice and snow tires, and you can expect a really slick summer only tire (like RE070 or Azenis Rt615) to be double again the all season's stopping distance. Rain is a different matter and the tread design can make all the difference, even if the tires use similar compounds. If you follow any of Tire Rack's test data you will see that the best "wet" tires are often times some of the best "dry" tires as well. A good example is the Goodyear F1 GS-D3 which was the top "wet" performer in a test of 11 Max performance summer tires. They were also the #4 dry performer.
have you ever seen what "rain tires" look like in F1 or MGP vs your consumer-grade rain tires?
Be careful here, race tires for varied conditions have significantly more differences than just how they look on the outside. The compounds can vary dramatically. And while it may look like the "wet" tire only has two grooves over the "dry" that has none, there is much more to it than just that. Those cars also have tremendous down-force working in their favor and don't require the amount of evacuation channels as a street tire does. Races are often won or loss due to someone making a tire change at some point.
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