Resistors/Piggybacks vs ECU tuning/reflash

GeneralGrievous · Post by **GeneralGrievous** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:21 pm

Hey guys, I'm really interested about getting my chip flashed or tuned or getting a piggyback off of ebay. What do you all about this (I'm sure the information is endless), what have you all done and what would you suggest for best bang for buck.

I sense a beer and a talk at D&B coming lol.... Thanks for the 411

GeneralGrievous · Post by **GeneralGrievous** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:55 pm

Also as a side note/addendum... What are your feelings about the Super AFC II at Mach V? I've read a few forums that suggest that as a good way to go as well. I'm like a scanner suckin your brains dry, I know..... lol

Post by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:08 pm

Oh, we can all get into lengthy discussions concerning this at D&B's

The reflashes (EcuTek, Cobb etc.) are great if you have done all the mods that you are going to do and don't want to ever fittle with the setup. I've heard of ones where you send off your ECU to get reflashed with what the company thinks you map should look like given your mods. The problem with this is, they will probably make it very rich so that you have a "safe" tune. The downside is that it will not be making all the power that it can. I have also seen where you take your car to the company to have you car professionally tuned and they do the reflash right there. The advantage to this is that they have tuned it for your car and you can be assured (as long as they are a good tuner) that you have a good map for your car that is neither too rich nore lean. The bad part about any of this is, whenever you mod, you have to go back for a reflash. Just a FYI, I consider Cobb in this family since you are essentially locked into a single map that you cannot tune without adding additional software (Street Tuner).

Piggy back computers (UTEC etc.) are great if you have a set of mods, but plan to continue to mod furhter down the road. They are also nice because most give you the software to be able to make changes yourself. Although you can try to tune these yourself, I would recommend going somewhere to get a base map to start from. In this case, a tuner will tune it to your car just the same as they did for the above (not too rich, but not too lean), but at the end of the day, you'll still have something you can make adjustments to. They also only operate when the computer goes into closed loop operation (aka, under boost).

Standalones (Motec, Hydra etc.) have a couple of advantages and disadvantages. Just like the above, you can tune them yourself, but they require a little more knowledge than the standard piggy back. A professional tune is highly recommended until you get the hang of things. They are also a little more picky and require more time and money to get setup properly. The advantage to them is that you can run 100% closed loop if you want.

There are ALOT of other things in this debate/discussion, but we'll save those for over beers

Here is a little list:

Code: Select all

Reflashes:
  Adv:
        Flash it and forget it
        Retains the stock computer for most functions
        Little to no experience needed
        Very simple to install/operate
        Retains ODBII connection (for emissions)
  DisAdv.:
        If you make a large modification, you will want to get a reflash
        You cannot tune it yourself without buy a second (usually expensive) peice of hardware/software combo


Piggy back:
   Adv.:
        Retains the stock computer for most functions
        Can tune things yourself if you need to with no additional cost (ok, a laptop is needed)
        Fairly simple to install/operate
        Retains ODBII connection (for emissions)
   DisAdv.:
        Still operates only during closed loop times
        For street tuning, you will need to get a seperate wideband O2 sensor


Standalone:
    Adv.:
        You are in complete control of the car during open and close loop
        Very fine level of tuning is possible
        Most can take advantage of a wideband O2 sensor for tuning while on the road.

    DisAdv.:
        Since you are in complete control, a good tune is necessary
        More expensive than the rest
        You will loose some functionality (for the Hydra, no Cruise Control or ODBII)

Ok, so this turned out to be a LONG post...  Definitely come up and we can talk :)  I have a Hydra in my STI, Zak has a UTEC (and is a 3l33t master of it), so we can have some good talks about each of them :)

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:55 pm

I'm an AccessPort man myself. it's upgradeable as you progress through the mods, has the ability to add StreetTuner if you want to self tune, and ProTuner stops are starting to crop up in the area. I've have heard good things about a shop in Baltimore (can't remember the name off the top of my head) and Mach V is going to be doing ProTune soon.

Stage I is for an otherwise stock car and you CAN feel a difference. I'm at Stage II now and I'm completely satisfied with the power levels of the car. depending on how my A/F looks at the dyno day I may or may not get a ProTune for Christmas. (yes, I have been a good boy this year)

GeneralGrievous · Post by **GeneralGrievous** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:04 pm

Just what I had hoped for... more info than I can currently fit into my brain!

I've started checking out options so talking with some of you who have different solutions already running will be great. As to when I can get it done is a different story (depending entirely on cost)... Unlike Mr Kleen, I havent been a very good boy... I did buy this cool toy called a WRX in June y'know..

Post by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:20 pm

Mr Kleen wrote:... (yes, I have been a good boy this year)

GeneralGrievous wrote:Unlike Mr Kleen, I havent been a very good boy... I did buy this cool toy called a WRX in June y'know..

And that, my friend, is the greatest gift of all...

I will warn you, coming to one of our meets makes you spend money... Ask Colin (bluscooby23) haha

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:02 pm

no more wife to hold me back (

and

) so I'm spending on the new lady in my life: Betty.

if you're starting with a bone stock WRX, tires (and maybe wheels) are your first priority. after that my first mod was a Kartboy short shifter. I test drove a WRX with the STi ($300+) shifter and the Kartboy is better. it also cost $100 new (I found it for $50 used). I came from a 2000 Civic Si so I was used to a great shifting transmissions. the Kartboy really helped out the WRX. it's no Miata or BMW now but it's much better than stock.

you can find a lot of stuff used if you're patient. I have a couple used parts on the car and they've all been just fine.

BTW: have you been to NASIOC.com yet? great place to learn but makes sure to search 3 times before posting ANYTHING. they're a band of sharks over there. very informative sharks...

Post by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:51 pm

Informative and 50% of the time wrong... I've heard so much bad advise over there it's not even funny.

BTW, as far as mod lists are concerned, Mr. Kleen has pointed you in a good direction. I have no idea how good the stock WRX tires are (I think terrible from all I have heard), but you wil probably be able to make it through the winter on them (I could be wrong!).

In modding, it all epends on what your perference is for what you want to enhance. Some beginning tips:
Better handling: Tires, springs and sway bars
Better acceleration: Downpipe, uppipe and engine management
Better stopping: Fluid, lines, break pads and calibers.

All a matter of preference (and budget).

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:19 pm

best bang for the buck from my personal experience:

Tires (stockers should be fine until Spring, but don't push them too hard)

Short Shifter (ultra-EZ DIY)

Stainless Steel brake lines & DOT4 fluid (EZ DIY)

Up Pipe (full disclosure: I did mine after the AccessPort and DP)

GeneralGrievous · Post by **GeneralGrievous** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:01 am

Beers for both of you....

I already have tires (Kumho Ecsta), wheels (ADR 17"), Borla Hush catback and thats it power/handle wise. But I do have a dirty secret... its an auto. I've tried and maybe my feet are too big (that's what my wife says) or I'm just way to lazy but I really suck the big one with a stick.... Hope this doesnt get me shunned....

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:47 am

GeneralGrievous wrote:I really suck the big one with a stick.... Hope this doesnt get me shunned....

no way! we're open to all peoples regardless of color, creed or sexual orientation.

but seriously, all I would suggest you add is a rear sway bar (it's on my shopping list next), an up pipe, a down pipe, and some sort of EM. then the car is finished with power adders. or at least MY car is done with power adders. stage 2 is crazy fast for a street driven car. there are lots of faster cars out there, but mine is more than fast enough for me...

I won't be able to make the D&B meet tonight, but if you make it out to a Hard Times meet you can buy me that beer.

Post by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:16 am

GeneralGrievous wrote:But I do have a dirty secret... its an auto. I've tried and maybe my feet are too big (that's what my wife says) or I'm just way to lazy but I really suck the big one with a stick.... Hope this doesnt get me shunned....

I'm sorry, you can no longer come to DCAWD Events....

The VP (ElzorroFXT) has an auto too and we don't make too much fun of him for it

I wear a size 12 and have no troubles, but there are some technique's that will help us large.... footed people. I can show you id you're interested. It's actually an advantage to have large feet since you can do breaking while on the gas... a nice thing to be able to do in a corner!

Mr Kleen wrote: I won't be able to make the D&B meet tonight, but if you make it out to a Hard Times meet you can buy me that beer.

lol, meet is TOMORROW (Wednesday) night silly!

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:34 pm

tonight, tomorrow, either way I won't be able to make it. having Monday off has thrown my internal calendar off by a day.

zaxrex · Post by **zaxrex** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:13 pm

If you can get your hands on an ABC (auxiliary boost controler) from Turbo XS, I have a spare UTEC that you could look at and get the flavor for.

Or if the rain keeps up tomorrow, I can show you mine and Julian can show you his.

Post by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:55 pm

zaxrex wrote: Or if the rain keeps up tomorrow, I can show you mine and Julian can show you his.

Dude, you know I'm not into that sort of thing.... But if you want to see the Hydra and the software that runs it, I can show you that

GeneralGrievous · Post by **GeneralGrievous** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:10 pm

Whoa... I was gettin a little shocked there! Glad to know that "showing mine" isnt a part of the initiation. I mean.. I havent even removed my snorkus yet

Post by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:42 pm

^^^ Ah yes, but you are asking about it...

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:36 pm

What kind of person are you?

Are you a tinkering kind of guy who will add a downpipe this month and maybe a bigger intercooler mext month and maybe an intake the month after that. Maybe even long term plans of adding a bigger turbo and injectors some day.

Or are you a man with a plan i.e. "I want 300whp and know the path to get me there and am in the process of getting all my ducks in a row"

The answer to those can be a guide to which EM (engine management) is right for you.

It is hard to knock Cobb's Accessport. It's a good bank for the buck and is very user friendly. If your not the type who wants to custom build your own maps and you don't think your going to go outside their upgrade path it is probably your best buy. There are even local tuneres who have started tuning Accessports.

If your even less interested in "modding" out you ride, and you just would like a simple route to getting better performance out of what you have, a reflash from a good tuner (Kingpin, PDX Tuning, Vishnu) is a simple and cost effective way to go.

If you love the idea of wringing out every ounce of performance out of your WRX and you want a variety of maps for a variety of fuels and conditions, than a programable EM is your ticket. Now the choice comes down to piggyback (UTEC) or a standalone (Hydra, Link, ect.). Since Julian covered those differences I will let it go at that.

Post by **complacent** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:40 pm

I'm pretty sure you CAN'T use teh UTEC w/ an 04+ WRX and a 4EAT. There were too many OL/CL issues for them to get it to work well.

drwrx · Post by **drwrx** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:47 pm

Ooops, indeed I believe Colin is correct!
I forgot you have an auto. I think that makes the UTEC a no-go for you.
I remember hearing similar remarks.

hotsam · Post by **hotsam** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:26 pm

I'd go with a Cobb Stage 2. Then, when you've got your car where you want it, get a Protune.

I had a Unichip, and that was horrible (I like to call it "engine managment that forgets"). I've also had a UTEC, and I didn't really like it. Right now I have ECUTEK, and it's good, but it's hard to find a tuner. Cobb has the best of both worlds.

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:26 pm

AP stage I is a noticeable improvement. stage II is more than enough 4 me.

Post by **Sabre** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:49 pm

Mr Kleen wrote:AP stage I is a noticeable improvement. stage II is more than enough 4 me.

I just wanted to quote this so I have it in the record books for when it's broken....

Mr Kleen · Post by **Mr Kleen** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:50 pm

put it next 2 this:

it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow

Post by **Sabre** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:49 pm

That like a virgin saying sex isn't fun....